EUROPEAN RUGBY - Revised Format

[LE18]

Like the choice of Adam Jones or not at least we escape Pascal

Didnt know he had taken up reffing, has he had his hair cut?

[teds]

Change of ref was announced last Friday:

https://www.epcrugby.com/2021/03/26/ref ... cht-rugby/

Pascal Gauzère is not available to referee the Challenge Cup, Round of 16 fixture between Leicester Tigers and Connacht Rugby on Saturday, 3 April. Gauzère has been replaced by Adam Jones (Wales) for the match at Mattioli Woods Welford Road.

The match Leicester Tigers – Connacht Rugby will take place on Saturday, April 3rd at 20:00 local time. The match officials will be :

Referee: Adam Jones (Wal); Assistant referees: Jack Makepeace (Eng), Phil Watters (Eng); TMO: Sean Brickell (Wal)

I never like these refs from the same league!

Totally. It’s clear one team had a much better idea of what the referee would fail to penalise.
I thought this had been acknowledged as an issue and addressed. I can only presume the new covid wave in France meant it was not advisable to bring a neutral ref over at short notice.

[ourla]

Change of ref was announced last Friday:

https://www.epcrugby.com/2021/03/26/ref ... cht-rugby/

I never like these refs from the same league!

Totally. It’s clear one team had a much better idea of what the referee would fail to penalise.
I thought this had been acknowledged as an issue and addressed. I can only presume the new covid wave in France meant it was not advisable to bring a neutral ref over at short notice.

I want good refs, I don't care which League they referee in. There should be a consistency across the League's. The laws are the same in all of them and there should be a consistency across their interpretation. If we are saying that the Pro14 is reffed significantly differently to the Prem then there is a problem and that should be addressed.

It did occur to me over the weekend that officials should be encouraged to spend a season or two referee in a different league as part of their development. No so much because it should be that different but more from a point of view of gaining that exposure understanding of different teams, players, coaches, languages and cultures. Would also help make the step to European and International competition.

The only argument I can think of for it is the familiarity/bias angle. Familiarity simply on the basis you know one team better than the other, the bias because you may have some affinity with the competition you mostly ref. But refs could have all sorts of bias and I think you have to pay store by their professionalism to remain neutral.

[Wayne Richardson Fan Club]

You used to occasionally see a Southern Hemisphere ref the week before a 6N game in one of the Euro league games, especially if they hadn't had a game for a bit.

[teds]

I never like these refs from the same league!

Totally. It’s clear one team had a much better idea of what the referee would fail to penalise.
I thought this had been acknowledged as an issue and addressed. I can only presume the new covid wave in France meant it was not advisable to bring a neutral ref over at short notice.

I want good refs, I don't care which League they referee in. There should be a consistency across the League's. The laws are the same in all of them and there should be a consistency across their interpretation. If we are saying that the Pro14 is reffed significantly differently to the Prem then there is a problem and that should be addressed.

It did occur to me over the weekend that officials should be encouraged to spend a season or two referee in a different league as part of their development. No so much because it should be that different but more from a point of view of gaining that exposure understanding of different teams, players, coaches, languages and cultures. Would also help make the step to European and International competition.

The only argument I can think of for it is the familiarity/bias angle. Familiarity simply on the basis you know one team better than the other, the bias because you may have some affinity with the competition you mostly ref. But refs could have all sorts of bias and I think you have to pay store by their professionalism to remain neutral.

For the European competitions it was argued that Celtic league teams did better with Celtic league referees so, when ERC was replaced by EPRC (2015?) it was agreed that the referees would be from a neutral league not just a neutral country.

A related problem is the language problem. Non English speaking teams are also dis-advantaged with a English speaking referee.

I totally agree with your suggestion that we should have refereeing exchange programmes, and I think this might help address both of these issues to a degree.

[JP14]

Barnes and Pearce are generally quite good at communicating bilingually, would love to see more British & Irish Refs do the same, I think the Italians would appreciate if the refs knew some Italian too.

Maybe the solution is just speak Latin in European games?

[loretta]

Barnes and Pearce are generally quite good at communicating bilingually, would love to see more British & Irish Refs do the same, I think the Italians would appreciate if the refs knew some Italian too.

Maybe the solution is just speak Latin in European games?

Esperanto??

[Cagey Tiger]

I never like these refs from the same league!

Totally. It’s clear one team had a much better idea of what the referee would fail to penalise.
I thought this had been acknowledged as an issue and addressed. I can only presume the new covid wave in France meant it was not advisable to bring a neutral ref over at short notice.

I want good refs, I don't care which League they referee in. There should be a consistency across the League's. The laws are the same in all of them and there should be a consistency across their interpretation. If we are saying that the Pro14 is reffed significantly differently to the Prem then there is a problem and that should be addressed.

It did occur to me over the weekend that officials should be encouraged to spend a season or two referee in a different league as part of their development. No so much because it should be that different but more from a point of view of gaining that exposure understanding of different teams, players, coaches, languages and cultures. Would also help make the step to European and International competition.

The only argument I can think of for it is the familiarity/bias angle. Familiarity simply on the basis you know one team better than the other, the bias because you may have some affinity with the competition you mostly ref. But refs could have all sorts of bias and I think you have to pay store by their professionalism to remain neutral.

While I agree with the sentiments expressed, its never going to happen. We are taking about human beings here. With different personalities, backgrounds, age, experience, fitness and lots of other stuff. We don't get consistency with refs in each league, let alone across leagues. Even if all refs applied the laws the same, they have to see an offence or be shown it. Each ref and assistant ref will move differently, look around them differently. Even TMOs will not look at exactly the same stuff on their screens.

And then there the judgement calls. Largely this has been addressed with regard to collisions with the head. But what about yellow cards for repeat offences, either by individuals or the team?

Even if the laws were interpreted in the same way across leagues, referees are individuals and will have their own idiosyncrasies. As such a team from the same league as the ref will have had that ref officiate them more than a team that doesn't and so should, I say should, know those idiosyncrasies better. Things that may be nothing to do with the laws, like where they position themselves at line-out and scrum, how fast they are at keeping up with the action etc. but things that may influence how you play.

[ourla]

While I agree with the sentiments expressed, its never going to happen. We are taking about human beings here. With different personalities, backgrounds, age, experience, fitness and lots of other stuff. We don't get consistency with refs in each league, let alone across leagues. Even if all refs applied the laws the same, they have to see an offence or be shown it. Each ref and assistant ref will move differently, look around them differently. Even TMOs will not look at exactly the same stuff on their screens.

And then there the judgement calls. Largely this has been addressed with regard to collisions with the head. But what about yellow cards for repeat offences, either by individuals or the team?

Even if the laws were interpreted in the same way across leagues, referees are individuals and will have their own idiosyncrasies. As such a team from the same league as the ref will have had that ref officiate them more than a team that doesn't and so should, I say should, know those idiosyncrasies better. Things that may be nothing to do with the laws, like where they position themselves at line-out and scrum, how fast they are at keeping up with the action etc. but things that may influence how you play.

With all due respect I think that is baloney but just to add to what I've previously said consider this:

1) If the rule didn't apply teams would get more exposure to those other refs.
2) There is such a thing as video replays - so you can always analyse the refs before games if you feel it's needed.
3) Players move between leagues so have different experiences.
4) Many players are internationals so will have experienced some of the other league refs.
5) If familiarity with refs was a thing there would be far less penalties and cards given out where the ref was known but from what I can see there is no correlation.
6) Refs are all trained in a certain way and their performance is monitored so that they ref in a certain way.
7) You think in the heat of the battle players are constantly computing on the referee?

The only part of it that makes any sense is the

[Cagey Tiger]

While I agree with the sentiments expressed, its never going to happen. We are taking about human beings here. With different personalities, backgrounds, age, experience, fitness and lots of other stuff. We don't get consistency with refs in each league, let alone across leagues. Even if all refs applied the laws the same, they have to see an offence or be shown it. Each ref and assistant ref will move differently, look around them differently. Even TMOs will not look at exactly the same stuff on their screens.

And then there the judgement calls. Largely this has been addressed with regard to collisions with the head. But what about yellow cards for repeat offences, either by individuals or the team?

Even if the laws were interpreted in the same way across leagues, referees are individuals and will have their own idiosyncrasies. As such a team from the same league as the ref will have had that ref officiate them more than a team that doesn't and so should, I say should, know those idiosyncrasies better. Things that may be nothing to do with the laws, like where they position themselves at line-out and scrum, how fast they are at keeping up with the action etc. but things that may influence how you play.

With all due respect I think that is baloney but just to add to what I've previously said consider this:

1) If the rule didn't apply teams would get more exposure to those other refs.
2) There is such a thing as video replays - so you can always analyse the refs before games if you feel it's needed.
3) Players move between leagues so have different experiences.
4) Many players are internationals so will have experienced some of the other league refs.
5) If familiarity with refs was a thing there would be far less penalties and cards given out where the ref was known but from what I can see there is no correlation.
6) Refs are all trained in a certain way and their performance is monitored so that they ref in a certain way.
7) You think in the heat of the battle players are constantly computing on the referee?

The only part of it that makes any sense is the

IMHO the consistency that you are asking for can only work to a certain degree, because officials are human beings, not robots. Any debate beyond that is speculation. We have both speculated and disagree. Nothing more to say really.

[Crofty]

Barnes and Pearce are generally quite good at communicating bilingually, would love to see more British & Irish Refs do the same, I think the Italians would appreciate if the refs knew some Italian too.

Maybe the solution is just speak Latin in European games?

Esperanto??

Let's parlé Franglais!