Jumping to catch the ball
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Jumping to catch the ball
Is it a fair competition for the ball? Does it favour the jumper more than the player on the floor? Can the player on the floor compete? Is it potentially too dangerous? I'd say yes to the first three points and no to the fourth.
It's fair because all players are able to compete, some choose not to.
It favours the running jumper as they can jump higher and at an attacking angle, its riskier but high risk high reward.
All players are capable of jumping from a static position, if Hanro had his eye on the ball all he needed to do was put his hand in the air to compete making it Bassetts responsibility to land safely.
It is potentially dangerous but so is the game by definition, refs need to apply the law when a jumper leads with their knees or studs (Law 9.11).
Players are adapting to some aspects of foul play in the game eg high tackles, neck roles, punching!! So I can't see an issue with adapting to compete for the high ball, however I may be very alone on this subject!!
It's fair because all players are able to compete, some choose not to.
It favours the running jumper as they can jump higher and at an attacking angle, its riskier but high risk high reward.
All players are capable of jumping from a static position, if Hanro had his eye on the ball all he needed to do was put his hand in the air to compete making it Bassetts responsibility to land safely.
It is potentially dangerous but so is the game by definition, refs need to apply the law when a jumper leads with their knees or studs (Law 9.11).
Players are adapting to some aspects of foul play in the game eg high tackles, neck roles, punching!! So I can't see an issue with adapting to compete for the high ball, however I may be very alone on this subject!!
Re: Jumping to catch the ball
It's always going to be an area where a player can use a bit of 'gamesmanship', rightly or wrongly!
If you're not competing then you need to take responsibility. Either compete or step aside and sack em when they land.
Leading with the knee though should also be an offence, yellow card IMO.
If you're not competing then you need to take responsibility. Either compete or step aside and sack em when they land.
Leading with the knee though should also be an offence, yellow card IMO.
Re: Jumping to catch the ball
There's definitely plenty of gamesmanship going on.
If a player falls on the floor (so to avoid contact with the player jumping in the air) and the jumping player lands on the fallen player with his studs would this be a red card to the jumper for dangerous play?
If a player falls on the floor (so to avoid contact with the player jumping in the air) and the jumping player lands on the fallen player with his studs would this be a red card to the jumper for dangerous play?
Re: Jumping to catch the ball
Don't like the law, never will however it is applied. If I am running to catch the ball and an opponent is doing the same, he jumps before me and is in the air, how the hell can I watch the ball and avoid him in the process. If he jumps and contacts my head - does he get sent off? No, do I get sent off? - yes. IMHO if you take a running jump for the ball it is your responsibility to land safely. If I cannot get out of the way of your jump then you are at fault, not me. I know this will never happen under the current laws but I think the law is wrong. If I deliberately take you out in the air, my fault and I deserve to be punished but when the contact is because you jumped, not my fault. Hanro made no attempt to take him out, was stationary and he landed on his arms, so for me, not a red. The other 2 were reds as was Youngs just to be even handed
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Re: Jumping to catch the ball
For the specific incident yesterday
Personally I think Liebenberg made the situation bad for himself, he saw Bassett at the last minute and tried (but failed) to completely pull out of the challenge for the ball.
If he notices sooner he avoids contact and smashes him on landing.
If he challenges for the ball it's a bit messy Bassett wins the ball but and depending on how close to getting it he is he's unlikely to be penalised amd certainly not with a red.
As it was he got stuck between the two and made it all worse. It was a clear red as let's face it if Bassett had kept hold of ball rather than spilling it there was a good chance his arms wouldn't have broken his fall and he could have been seriously injured.
To generally answer your questions
Is it fair competition to jump yes.
Yes it favors the jumper, that's why the defender needs to jump too as then they're on level playing field.
Yes someone on the floor can compete, so long as they're trying to catch the ball (Liebenberg had given up on trying to catch it) If a person on the ground is arms up trying to catch the ball then impacts are much less likely to flip the player as contact with arms will come first and provide an element of shock absorption.
No I don't think this is too dangerous, these are not super common occurrences and a lot of things have bigger risks. Most dangerous thing when jumping (and as a fullback I speak from experience) is when chasing a kick and you go up to jump is the subtle blocking movements that defenders as you're jumping to compete, if that means you just catch them when you're not expecting it then you're in more trouble
Personally I think Liebenberg made the situation bad for himself, he saw Bassett at the last minute and tried (but failed) to completely pull out of the challenge for the ball.
If he notices sooner he avoids contact and smashes him on landing.
If he challenges for the ball it's a bit messy Bassett wins the ball but and depending on how close to getting it he is he's unlikely to be penalised amd certainly not with a red.
As it was he got stuck between the two and made it all worse. It was a clear red as let's face it if Bassett had kept hold of ball rather than spilling it there was a good chance his arms wouldn't have broken his fall and he could have been seriously injured.
To generally answer your questions
Is it fair competition to jump yes.
Yes it favors the jumper, that's why the defender needs to jump too as then they're on level playing field.
Yes someone on the floor can compete, so long as they're trying to catch the ball (Liebenberg had given up on trying to catch it) If a person on the ground is arms up trying to catch the ball then impacts are much less likely to flip the player as contact with arms will come first and provide an element of shock absorption.
No I don't think this is too dangerous, these are not super common occurrences and a lot of things have bigger risks. Most dangerous thing when jumping (and as a fullback I speak from experience) is when chasing a kick and you go up to jump is the subtle blocking movements that defenders as you're jumping to compete, if that means you just catch them when you're not expecting it then you're in more trouble
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Re: Jumping to catch the ball
There was an interesting one in the internationals during the autumn when Biggar jumped and landed on Underhill.
Poite said Underhill wasn't moving and had no obligation to get out of Biggar's way seeing as there was such a distance from take off to landing. Underhill wrapped and brought him down safely which was the limit of his obligation according to Poite.
I wonder if the outcome would have different if Bassett had failed to get fingertips to the ball - at that point it's a flying knee to Hanro and presumably the red would go the other way. Might we in future get interpretation like deliberate knock on around having reasonable chance to take the ball?
Poite said Underhill wasn't moving and had no obligation to get out of Biggar's way seeing as there was such a distance from take off to landing. Underhill wrapped and brought him down safely which was the limit of his obligation according to Poite.
I wonder if the outcome would have different if Bassett had failed to get fingertips to the ball - at that point it's a flying knee to Hanro and presumably the red would go the other way. Might we in future get interpretation like deliberate knock on around having reasonable chance to take the ball?
Re: Jumping to catch the ball
Hanro should have tried to compete with the ball and not pull out or at least catch Bassett, so whilst it would have been a penalty he wouldn’t have got the red card.
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Re: Jumping to catch the ball
If you watch Hanro he sees Bassett and basically braces for impact. There's no thought process he sees him so late. What he should have done was just jump because then the poorly written laws mean he isn't at fault though I disliked the TMO summary that he was never in position to catch the ball. He was under where it was landing. By the letter of the law it's red but the good referees look at those situations and apply a bit of commonsense, it was an accident downgrade it to yellow and whilst he still misses the end of the game there's no further sanction for something that wasn't reckless.
Forwards rarely jump to take a kick off, a cynical and savvy coach could use that with wingers ploughing into the waiting forward on well aimed kick offs earning easy penalties and potentially cards for the opposition.
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Re: Jumping to catch the ball
The receiving team have lifting pods (something Tigers need to work on as they have been poor for some considerable time).
Not sure what the answer is without causing too much change to the game as a whole, banning jumping as a entirety might be a step to far but banning the feet up leap should be possible, or only allowed off the ground in the 22's so taking marks stays in the game.
There are some easy fixes for player safety, some of which will improve the game as well but as at present they don't enforce hookers feet at throw ins which might be the easiest thing to officiate I am not holding my breath
Not sure what the answer is without causing too much change to the game as a whole, banning jumping as a entirety might be a step to far but banning the feet up leap should be possible, or only allowed off the ground in the 22's so taking marks stays in the game.
There are some easy fixes for player safety, some of which will improve the game as well but as at present they don't enforce hookers feet at throw ins which might be the easiest thing to officiate I am not holding my breath
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Re: Jumping to catch the ball
You can start with the leading with knees or studs. If you enforce the illegality of that every time then these flying incidents will reduce. This is because you will never get as high and also the players on the floor may not have the automatic reaction of protecting themselves with hands over head. They may be more open in their stance when the see the approaching player and be in a better position to bring them down safely if there is contact.
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Re: Jumping to catch the ball
Actually just looked at that several times again and the thing that is very striking in this particular instance is how late it is that basset jumps. As Hanro is looking at the ball the mitigation should be nothing to do with how the guy lands but can he realistically expected him to have jumped so late and got so high.
Hanro is just about to take off himself when he suddenly realised Bassett is above.his automatic reaction is to protect himself. I just do not think it is fair or reasonable to expect him to have known that was where Bassett is, given where he was, when he last saw him
Hanro is just about to take off himself when he suddenly realised Bassett is above.his automatic reaction is to protect himself. I just do not think it is fair or reasonable to expect him to have known that was where Bassett is, given where he was, when he last saw him
Re: Jumping to catch the ball
Bassett was never realistically catching that ball in the air.
Liebenberg has to duck out and brace to prevent his head being taken off.
Crazy stuff!
Liebenberg has to duck out and brace to prevent his head being taken off.
Crazy stuff!
Re: Jumping to catch the ball
Hanro was unlucky in that his eyes were clearly on the ball until a split second before the jumping player crashed into him giving no time to avoid the collision. Clearly there is the argument that he should have looked but the same can be said for the player jumping into the collision who also has a duty of care towards the player who he about to collide with. I hope this is taken into consideration as mitigation when he's in front of the beak.
Jumpers raising feet and more commonly knees should also be considered. If you are not allowed to shoulder charge another player without an open arm why is it OK to go into potential contact with a flying knee? It is often the player on the ground ducking in the contact that presents a back for the jumping player to fall on leading to uncontrolled contact with the pitch.
At the moment the decision of fault seems to be entirely based on whether or not the player on the ground had a reasonable chance of catching the ball. To my mind the consideration need to be wider in order to discourage dangerous jumping.
Jumpers raising feet and more commonly knees should also be considered. If you are not allowed to shoulder charge another player without an open arm why is it OK to go into potential contact with a flying knee? It is often the player on the ground ducking in the contact that presents a back for the jumping player to fall on leading to uncontrolled contact with the pitch.
At the moment the decision of fault seems to be entirely based on whether or not the player on the ground had a reasonable chance of catching the ball. To my mind the consideration need to be wider in order to discourage dangerous jumping.
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Re: Jumping to catch the ball
The catcher has to make a choice to either compete for the ball or sack the catcher legally, I don't believe Hanro was unaware of Bassett approaching as anyone receiving a high ball will always be conscious of the chaser to either brace for impact, side step or pass. More clumsy than devious so hopefully a minor ban.
Alternatively Jonny May got away with a borderline but still illegal jump to score a try against Italy. Nigel Owens logically broke down the incident as a decision between simply diving to score or jumping to avoid a tackle before scoring, and as he jumped so high in the field of play to avoid the tackler and before scoring, that should've been a penalty in his view, makes sense to me!
Alternatively Jonny May got away with a borderline but still illegal jump to score a try against Italy. Nigel Owens logically broke down the incident as a decision between simply diving to score or jumping to avoid a tackle before scoring, and as he jumped so high in the field of play to avoid the tackler and before scoring, that should've been a penalty in his view, makes sense to me!
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Re: Jumping to catch the ball
Leibenberg had no chance to avoid contact, he was chugging up the pitch, watching the ball, the winger leapt and came down on him from and angle, Leibenberg was not trying to catch the ball or tackle the winger, he was not even in the balls or the wingers expected landing zone, for me the jumper is at fault for clattering him with his knees to his head.
We hear a lot about protecting the players from blows to the head, but if you are a leaping winger you are excused!
We hear a lot about protecting the players from blows to the head, but if you are a leaping winger you are excused!