Away vs Quins Sat 13th Feb

[JP14]

Admittedly I’m one of the first to criticise a ref for their ineptitude, but he was downright dire for both sides, both first tries for Harlequins and us should have been chalked off for knock-ons, couldn’t put a marker on the game so decided to to bin two players for a push and a shove? Had no clue whatsoever.

[DingDong]

Close? We lost by 2 clear scores...

Because we looked like scoring all game, stupid tiny little decisions and poor discipline took that away from us. No major changes needed just tiny tweaks and we would've come away with a win. Roll the clock back 12 months and remember how disjointed we were with nor passion.

Again, mistaking performance for the result.

We are making progress but the results aren't there yet, you'll have to excuse me if I don't begin the poultry census just yet...

You're rambling Crofty mate, about as much sense as Zachs tactical kicking. What's the point moaning at the result when when are quite obviously on the right track at last with the rebuild? Stupid errors and daft decisions will become less, results will come.

[trendylfj]

Let's just concentrate on the positives for a minute. This season we have seen that we have 2 youngsters who I hope will be with us for many years - JVP and Steward and several who are very very close to very important to us - Martin, Kelly, Henderson, and Chessum. I was impressed by Martin's performance yesterday and look forward to seeing much more from him. Of the senior players who are improving, I can only think of two, based on yesterday. Brink looked much more like the player we hoped he would be and Heyes put in a good shift against one of the best props around. Of the rest, most were OK but some still have a lot to prove to me. If I think back to our glory days, we had 3/4's who would almost pick themselves and strike fear into the opposition. We just don't have that at present.

Negatives for me are Taute, Scott, Henry, Muri, McP, Moroni, and Van Wyk are all good steady players but they are not going to destroy the opposition. I leave out of these comments Bonilla as I haven't seen enough of him yet but we do need to find a top-class 12 or 13 who is willing to come to us so we can develop a more expansive game when required and if Bonilla is not going to be our back-up 10, someone other than Henry needs to be found as well. That would be my priority followed closely by a 2nd row.

[Crofty]

Because we looked like scoring all game, stupid tiny little decisions and poor discipline took that away from us. No major changes needed just tiny tweaks and we would've come away with a win. Roll the clock back 12 months and remember how disjointed we were with nor passion.

Again, mistaking performance for the result.

We are making progress but the results aren't there yet, you'll have to excuse me if I don't begin the poultry census just yet...

You're rambling Crofty mate, about as much sense as Zachs tactical kicking. What's the point moaning at the result when when are quite obviously on the right track at last with the rebuild? Stupid errors and daft decisions will become less, results will come.

I've stay absolutely on my mark, the original comment I responded to said it was a close result. It wasn't, we lost by two clear scores. That's the entirety of what I originally said.

To expand, it was a closer performance than the scoreline looked but, much as saying "we got the result and that's all that matters" was incorrect on our way down it's my opinion that falling into a mantra of, "the performance was close so it doesn't matter that we got zero league points from the game" is just as incorrect.

[TigerBoy1880]

The position is similar to where it was pre covid break last season, remind me how that ended again?

Don’t worry. We. Can’t. Get. Relegated.

We can still finish last.

Like we did last season...

We finished 11th. Just because Saracens were better and only finished last because they cheated, doesn’t change the fact they finished last, whether you say so or not.

If we finish 12th this season, does it matter, nothing will happen to us will it? We won’t finish 12th but if we do, it makes no difference whatsoever

[johnthegriff]

O.K so we lost, that is a negative, on the positive side though is that in that game we involved half a dozen very young players from our Academy and they were far from the worst players on the pitch.
Some people have questioned Heyes scrummaging ability, yesterday starting against one of Englands best looseheads the lad did well, he is still young for a prop but is learning and gaining strength, will be a worthy successor to Dan Cole (eventually)
Martin had a superb game at 6 but he will be a lock and probably a great one.
Jack V.P an excellent game with a couple of good breaks and a try, when he went off Ben White came on and played well, Ben Youngs has some serious challengers for his position.
Our back row is strong and has greater depth than in recent years. Tommy Reffell is a valuable member of that group and worth his place in the squad.
Freddie Steward is proving himself every week, a couple of things did not work for him yesterday but still a decent game and he is learning all the time.
Other youngsters like Kelly. Potter. Porter, Henderson and Chessum have appeared for us and not looked out of place. they will only get better.
We probably do need to add to the squad in certain positions but we are far from being in a bad position.

[DaveRave]

Don’t worry. We. Can’t. Get. Relegated.

We can still finish last.

Like we did last season...

We finished 11th. Just because Saracens were better and only finished last because they cheated, doesn’t change the fact they finished last, whether you say so or not.

If we finish 12th this season, does it matter, nothing will happen to us will it? We won’t finish 12th but if we do, it makes no difference whatsoever

It might make a difference to next season's player recruitment / players wanting to stay / investment / sponsorship.

Might.

[TigerBoy1880]

We can still finish last.

Like we did last season...

We finished 11th. Just because Saracens were better and only finished last because they cheated, doesn’t change the fact they finished last, whether you say so or not.

If we finish 12th this season, does it matter, nothing will happen to us will it? We won’t finish 12th but if we do, it makes no difference whatsoever

It might make a difference to next season's player recruitment / players wanting to stay / investment / sponsorship.

Might.

Doubt it. Finishing 12th or 7th is the same now

[wellstiger]

As I've said before, Fine margins.
With a tweak here and there we may start to get the results we are all looking for. Early days. Yes I agree we need a consistent back up 10. Did someone allude to F Burns recently?
I agree some young uns in our team against a settled nearly rammed Queens team .I am hopeful for the future seasons.
Trust in SB and keep ya bowels open.

[LE18]

O.K so we lost, that is a negative, on the positive side though is that in that game we involved half a dozen very young players from our Academy and they were far from the worst players on the pitch.
Some people have questioned Heyes scrummaging ability, yesterday starting against one of Englands best looseheads the lad did well, he is still young for a prop but is learning and gaining strength, will be a worthy successor to Dan Cole (eventually)
Martin had a superb game at 6 but he will be a lock and probably a great one.
Jack V.P an excellent game with a couple of good breaks and a try, when he went off Ben White came on and played well, Ben Youngs has some serious challengers for his position.
Our back row is strong and has greater depth than in recent years. Tommy Reffell is a valuable member of that group and worth his place in the squad.
Freddie Steward is proving himself every week, a couple of things did not work for him yesterday but still a decent game and he is learning all the time.
Other youngsters like Kelly. Potter. Porter, Henderson and Chessum have appeared for us and not looked out of place. they will only get better.
We probably do need to add to the squad in certain positions but we are far from being in a bad position.

John I agree with almost everything you said, but I think you need to watch where Heyes feet go when he packs down, he has to put them so far back to get his hips down, I saw his right knee go to ground on at least 2 of the first few scrums, yes I agree he is a good player and was up against Marler and I hope he can adjust in some way or he will be pinged for doing it.

[jgriffin]

Improving.
In for the two season long haul, unlike the premature doom and gloom spaffing of some on here. SB has said he has a two season horizon and I can see the core of a homegrown great side announcing itself, with some tough-nut keepers and some obvious wobble areas that will be addressed.
Priorities so far have been largely spot on - conditioning, forward skills and domination, improving defence.
Problems such as settling the side tactically are not sorted, and this really is my major worry - when you have a side that is good, ball in hand, you need to play to those strengths whether mauling or attacking from depth. Sticking rigidly to a tactical kicking game is simply dull in every sense.

[BrightonTiger]

The problem with focusing too much on the result is you develop a fixed mindset. Not losing becomes so important that you only try what you're good at. Players become fearful of looking stupid, don't challenge themselves, try new things

Michael Phelps, Michael Jordan, Tom Brady and Tiger Woods have all spoken about developing a growth mindset which focuses on the process rather than the outcome.

The process is completely in your control whilst the outcome is subject to variables.

A review meeting on a Monday which was only interested in the result would be pretty pointless……..”We lost, right time for lunch”!

[fortysix]

Well, SB is sorting the forwards out into quite a unit, although it seems the vultures are circling claiming our quality imports...
The backs, though, are way off the pace.
Take out Steward, Van P, Nadolo, Ford and Youngs, and there is not one who would have ever got near the Tigers team that won in Paris. So, that is the weakness, and its a big one..

[tigercub21]

Well, SB is sorting the forwards out into quite a unit, although it seems the vultures are circling claiming our quality imports...
The backs, though, are way off the pace.
Take out Steward, Van P, Nadolo, Ford and Youngs, and there is not one who would have ever got near the Tigers team that won in Paris. So, that is the weakness, and its a big one..

Yes that is true, but the players you have listed are our best backs and would get into that team? You are referring to a back line where you have taken out our best players and saying that the rest are not good enough. I agree but the players you have listed are in our back line and can do a very good job. Not every team has a world class back in every position, they have a functional one who have great relationships and understanding.

[BG01]

Let's just concentrate on the positives for a minute. This season we have seen that we have 2 youngsters who I hope will be with us for many years - JVP and Steward and several who are very very close to very important to us - Martin, Kelly, Henderson, and Chessum. I was impressed by Martin's performance yesterday and look forward to seeing much more from him. Of the senior players who are improving, I can only think of two, based on yesterday. Brink looked much more like the player we hoped he would be and Heyes put in a good shift against one of the best props around. Of the rest, most were OK but some still have a lot to prove to me. If I think back to our glory days, we had 3/4's who would almost pick themselves and strike fear into the opposition. We just don't have that at present.

Negatives for me are Taute, Scott, Henry, Muri, McP, Moroni, and Van Wyk are all good steady players but they are not going to destroy the opposition. I leave out of these comments Bonilla as I haven't seen enough of him yet but we do need to find a top-class 12 or 13 who is willing to come to us so we can develop a more expansive game when required and if Bonilla is not going to be our back-up 10, someone other than Henry needs to be found as well. That would be my priority followed closely by a 2nd row.

I think it is hard to take this seriously when Moroni, Kini, and Scott are all established international players who demonstrably have destroyed the opposition in the past. Likewise Van Wyk who scored tries for fun before he came to us. The idea that these players aren't good enough is bizarre.

More generally, I think people are being overly dismissive of McPhillips. He's a young player (3 years younger than Henry!) and we've seen basically none of him and when he's played he's looked good. No idea if he's the real deal or not, but let's not write him off before he's had a proper chance.