Progress Under Borthwick

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Cardiff Tig
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Re: Progress Under Borthwick

Post by Cardiff Tig »

I think we're still skinny at 13. Not a huge fan of Taute at 13, and if Moroni gets called up I think it's a weak spot. I know we have utility players than can cover though.
TigerFeetSteve
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Re: Progress Under Borthwick

Post by TigerFeetSteve »

Cardiff Tig wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:52 am I think we're still skinny at 13. Not a huge fan of Taute at 13, and if Moroni gets called up I think it's a weak spot. I know we have utility players than can cover though.
In the Exeter game I thought the Kelly/Scott axis in the centres worked really well.

Porter also looked pretty good when he played there.

Plus Taute really impressed for me there vs Glaws first game of the year so don't see it a too much of a weakness
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TigerCam
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Re: Progress Under Borthwick

Post by TigerCam »

RichieB wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 11:30 am So we are just over half way through the season and it seems a reasonable time to have a view on this matter based on performances and results on the pitch.

We are just below mid-table and it seems pretty tight there, so a couple of results in the right direction and we could be around that 4th place. This in itself would have seemed implausible pre Borthwick.

Looking back at the PB (pre Borthwick) era, we were arguably the worst team in the division, or at least close to worst. Only barely saved from relegation by the Saracens situation and that last gasp Guy Thompson turn over v Newcastle. Looking back we were incredibly fortunate that we weren’t relegated at all.

Under Borthwick, in my opinion, there have been noticeable improvements both in performance and these can now be evidenced by the results. There has been some excellent recruitment (for example Wiese, Moroni, Montoya) although I don’t know to what extent McGinity or Murphy was involved in any of those, given Jan saying once that often these deals take several months of work to crystallise. Furthermore, and critically, there are several academy players emerging into the first team and becoming key players (for example Steward, Heyes, Martin, JVP), although again probably not entirely Borthwick’s doing but to his credit he is giving them chance to flourish.

At the other end of the spectrum, Borthwick has also clearly not been afraid of moving people on who do not fit into the plan. By contrast, Murphy could have been criticised as being too affable and overly loyal to mediocre performers.

Whilst there are clearly many areas that require improvement and remain frustrating (for example poor discipline, leaving too many bonus points on the pitch, a bit lacking in attacking flair) in my opinion the evidence is clearly in Borthwick’s favour. It even seems that the highly irritating pointless kicking game finally improved marginally in the last couple of games.

So, well done to him, his team of coaches, medical staff and players. Let us hope we can keep this trajectory going for the rest of the season so we can truly be back winning trophies before too long. :smt041 :smt041 :smt041
It is still early days and IMO, the Tigers are still way off the consistency needed to win silverware. I am impressed by the mind-set SB has instilled in such a short time - everyone seems to be 'up for it'. A good measure of where the Tigers are will be the Ulster game. In two minds if the Tigers will win it - heart says 'yes', mind says 'maybe no quite good enough yet?' What I do know is that the Tigers will be in there for the whole 80 mins regardless of the score and that is something that has been missing pre SB.
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Old Hob
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Re: Progress Under Borthwick

Post by Old Hob »

There is an excellent two-column, full-page piece in yesterday's Times (17/04) praising SB. He is democratic - new or young players don't have to "earn the right" to voice an opinion, they automatically have it - his famous (or infamous) work ethic etc. We are progressing under him.
The caveat is that others are as well - no-one is standing still. Saints, Quins for example have been playing fast, running rugby. Our team today would have mullered them 6 months ago; now it's more even.
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OakhamTiger32
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Re: Progress Under Borthwick

Post by OakhamTiger32 »

2 games after which we should know a little more about where we are and how far we have to go... so the 2 games (Bath and Saints) have been and gone and where are we.. sadly still in 8th place having narrowly lost both games, 2 games perhaps we should have won. Time to take stock before the knockout semi-final..

The squad - I have been immensely impressed by our strength in depth. We have achieved some impressive results this season (winning six in a row at home and 9/12 overall home matches) and some with slightly surprising selections. A few of the younger lads have really stepped. Steward, JvP and Kelly have really impressed me and Martin, Henderson, Chessum and Heyes (albeit after his last 2 outings he has gone down a little in my view but still a huge prospect) have certainly showed glimpses of their huge potential. One thing is for certain, that our strength in depth is far greater than it has been for as long as I can remember. With Van Wyk, Snyman and Van Staden coming in I am extremely confident about our squad moving forward. Perhaps another lock and 13 would be the icing on the cake but we are in good shape and a side of:

Van Wyk, Montoya, Cole, Henderson, Snyman, Liebenberg, Van Staden, Wiese, JvP, Burns, Nadolo, Scott, Moroni, Potter, Steward (Murimurivalu if Steward get's called up)

during the 6N window is extremely strong. JMcP could be giving Burns a run for his money given his current form too.

Fitness looked a bit jaded during the match today but the pace was pretty relentless and it was a hot one but this is a huge step forward imho. Aled Walters has done wonders for our fitness and this will only stand us in good stead next season.

Scrum and Lineout both huge assets as you might expect under SB but both are functioning very well. Add in the rolling maul and we have some very good platforms to build upon.

Defence Ok so we are still losing matches and still conceding a fair few points but I have been very impressed with this aspect of our game. Ford seems to be doing a great job about getting back the dogged determined gritty Leicester Tigers defensive efforts and while it's not evident every single match there have been plenty of fantastic efforts from a defensive point of view. I am happy that we are moving in the right direction.

Attack Getting there slowly. A long way off the kind of attacking play displayed by the top 4 but this is early days. When we do try moves and put the ball through the hands we look pretty decent. The backs have scored a fair few tries over the last few games and we do have some great attacking potential.. just need to hang on to the ball!

Team Spirit The guys seem to have a much better togetherness about them and really seem to want to fight for the right to wear the shirt and we are pushing teams the full 80 minutes regardless of the score.. away to Exeter was a perfect example.

Discipline or lack thereof Biggest concern for me going forward. Too many red and yellow cards. Too many stupid penalties. When we keep the penalty count down as we have done a fair bit recently we are let down by too many players getting involved in unnecessary scuffles and too many dull decisions. Need to sort it out.

11 yellow cards and 3 red cards so far this season is unacceptable. Too many incidents to list them all but there have been far too many cases of ill discipline costing us. The last 2 matches we potentially could and should have won were it not for our ill discipline.

This is the big area of concern for me. If we can sort our discipline out I see us as a top 4-6 team next season. If we can't and we continue down this road then I think we will continue to struggle against the top 4 teams and will be scrapping it out mid table once again.

All in all I am happy with where we are. We are in much better shape than we were last season and with a lot more to be excited about. I think the disappointment for me is that we could have/should have won these last 2 games and then we would be in the top 6 and about to go into a European semi-final. After the last few seasons I'm sure most of us would have said 8th and a European semi at this stage would be a good return for Borthwick's first season in charge but we have left a fair few points out on the field (be it BPs or wins these last 2 weeks) and this is something that I'm sure will come with time and confidence.

I don't buy into the Challenge Cup being a losers competition as some have called it. It's a chance to see where we are at against a quality Pro 14 side that have a fantastic squad and are in great form, especially away from home. Plus, winning a competition of any kind in his first full season in charge would be a huge marker laid down by Borthwick. I want to win this competition and with a home semi against Ulster and then potentially a neutral venue match against Bath this is a very winnable competition for us. Far from easy but we can do it and I really hope we do.

I am confident about Friday night I just am desperate for us to start learning from our mistakes and really show what this squad can do.
Oakham lad born and bred, Tigers season ticket holder who is enjoying steady progression back towards the good old days!
LE18
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Re: Progress Under Borthwick

Post by LE18 »

OakhamTiger32 wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:54 pm 2 games after which we should know a little more about where we are and how far we have to go... so the 2 games (Bath and Saints) have been and gone and where are we.. sadly still in 8th place having narrowly lost both games, 2 games perhaps we should have won. Time to take stock before the knockout semi-final..

The squad - I have been immensely impressed by our strength in depth. We have achieved some impressive results this season (winning six in a row at home and 9/12 overall home matches) and some with slightly surprising selections. A few of the younger lads have really stepped. Steward, JvP and Kelly have really impressed me and Martin, Henderson, Chessum and Heyes (albeit after his last 2 outings he has gone down a little in my view but still a huge prospect) have certainly showed glimpses of their huge potential. One thing is for certain, that our strength in depth is far greater than it has been for as long as I can remember. With Van Wyk, Snyman and Van Staden coming in I am extremely confident about our squad moving forward. Perhaps another lock and 13 would be the icing on the cake but we are in good shape and a side of:

Van Wyk, Montoya, Cole, Henderson, Snyman, Liebenberg, Van Staden, Wiese, JvP, Burns, Nadolo, Scott, Moroni, Potter, Steward (Murimurivalu if Steward get's called up)

during the 6N window is extremely strong. JMcP could be giving Burns a run for his money given his current form too.

Fitness looked a bit jaded during the match today but the pace was pretty relentless and it was a hot one but this is a huge step forward imho. Aled Walters has done wonders for our fitness and this will only stand us in good stead next season.

Scrum and Lineout both huge assets as you might expect under SB but both are functioning very well. Add in the rolling maul and we have some very good platforms to build upon.

Defence Ok so we are still losing matches and still conceding a fair few points but I have been very impressed with this aspect of our game. Ford seems to be doing a great job about getting back the dogged determined gritty Leicester Tigers defensive efforts and while it's not evident every single match there have been plenty of fantastic efforts from a defensive point of view. I am happy that we are moving in the right direction.

Attack Getting there slowly. A long way off the kind of attacking play displayed by the top 4 but this is early days. When we do try moves and put the ball through the hands we look pretty decent. The backs have scored a fair few tries over the last few games and we do have some great attacking potential.. just need to hang on to the ball!

Team Spirit The guys seem to have a much better togetherness about them and really seem to want to fight for the right to wear the shirt and we are pushing teams the full 80 minutes regardless of the score.. away to Exeter was a perfect example.

Discipline or lack thereof Biggest concern for me going forward. Too many red and yellow cards. Too many stupid penalties. When we keep the penalty count down as we have done a fair bit recently we are let down by too many players getting involved in unnecessary scuffles and too many dull decisions. Need to sort it out.

11 yellow cards and 3 red cards so far this season is unacceptable. Too many incidents to list them all but there have been far too many cases of ill discipline costing us. The last 2 matches we potentially could and should have won were it not for our ill discipline.

This is the big area of concern for me. If we can sort our discipline out I see us as a top 4-6 team next season. If we can't and we continue down this road then I think we will continue to struggle against the top 4 teams and will be scrapping it out mid table once again.

All in all I am happy with where we are. We are in much better shape than we were last season and with a lot more to be excited about. I think the disappointment for me is that we could have/should have won these last 2 games and then we would be in the top 6 and about to go into a European semi-final. After the last few seasons I'm sure most of us would have said 8th and a European semi at this stage would be a good return for Borthwick's first season in charge but we have left a fair few points out on the field (be it BPs or wins these last 2 weeks) and this is something that I'm sure will come with time and confidence.

I don't buy into the Challenge Cup being a losers competition as some have called it. It's a chance to see where we are at against a quality Pro 14 side that have a fantastic squad and are in great form, especially away from home. Plus, winning a competition of any kind in his first full season in charge would be a huge marker laid down by Borthwick. I want to win this competition and with a home semi against Ulster and then potentially a neutral venue match against Bath this is a very winnable competition for us. Far from easy but we can do it and I really hope we do.

I am confident about Friday night I just am desperate for us to start learning from our mistakes and really show what this squad can do.
Excellent post, agree with most of that, cant comment on Van Wyk, Snyman or Van Staden as not seen them play.
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Re: Progress Under Borthwick

Post by sapajo »

Van Wyk does not cut it for me I would start Potter ahead of him. Reason being Van Wyk goes awol in attack and defence, his tackling technique is hap hazard and he simply cannot resist the deliberate knock on.
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OakhamTiger32
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Re: Progress Under Borthwick

Post by OakhamTiger32 »

sapajo wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:36 pm Van Wyk does not cut it for me I would start Potter ahead of him. Reason being Van Wyk goes awol in attack and defence, his tackling technique is hap hazard and he simply cannot resist the deliberate knock on.
Francois Van Wyk not Kobus. But yes.. I completely agree and would start Potter, Nadolo and Muri ahead of Kobus for sure
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OakhamTiger32
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Re: Progress Under Borthwick

Post by OakhamTiger32 »

LE18 wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:33 pm
OakhamTiger32 wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:54 pm
Excellent post, agree with most of that, cant comment on Van Wyk, Snyman or Van Staden as not seen them play.
Thanks LE18. You are in for a treat with Van Staden that’s for sure. Hope he continues the fine form he’s been in recently
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Old Hob
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Re: Progress Under Borthwick

Post by Old Hob »

Fair analysis and, I would add, skill levels/accuracy. Today there were passes into touch, fumbles and misses. Now, this may be over eagerness but what ever, it needs to change. I was impressed by, for example, Cowan-Dickie on Friday. A hooker calmly passing out of the tackle and keeping moves going. So - accurate hands and chaseable kicks for intensive practice.
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OakhamTiger32
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Re: Progress Under Borthwick

Post by OakhamTiger32 »

Old Hob wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:51 pm Fair analysis and, I would add, skill levels/accuracy. Today there were passes into touch, fumbles and misses. Now, this may be over eagerness but what ever, it needs to change. I was impressed by, for example, Cowan-Dickie on Friday. A hooker calmly passing out of the tackle and keeping moves going. So - accurate hands and chaseable kicks for intensive practice.
Agreed. I guess this comes with confidence and also game time together. Lots of the teams in the Premiership are very well established and we have seen wholesale changes and still haven’t really gelled yet. I’m sure it will come as partnerships develop but you’re absolutely right
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Re: Progress Under Borthwick

Post by JP14 »

The lack of Discipline for me is the team trying to find the balance of being aggressive as part of forward dominance, we’re just struggling to find that. Will that come with time, who knows? And of course let’s not forget the convention that any player in green, red and white must not get away with anything because of a certain Mr Back in the Millenium.
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Re: Progress Under Borthwick

Post by sapajo »

OakhamTiger32 wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:37 pm
sapajo wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:36 pm Van Wyk does not cut it for me I would start Potter ahead of him. Reason being Van Wyk goes awol in attack and defence, his tackling technique is hap hazard and he simply cannot resist the deliberate knock on.
Francois Van Wyk not Kobus. But yes.. I completely agree and would start Potter, Nadolo and Muri ahead of Kobus for sure
Forgot that we had signed that Van Wyk but my worry is why did he tumble down the pecking order for Saints?
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Re: Progress Under Borthwick

Post by TigerFeetSteve »

sapajo wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:23 pm
OakhamTiger32 wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:37 pm
sapajo wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:36 pm Van Wyk does not cut it for me I would start Potter ahead of him. Reason being Van Wyk goes awol in attack and defence, his tackling technique is hap hazard and he simply cannot resist the deliberate knock on.
Francois Van Wyk not Kobus. But yes.. I completely agree and would start Potter, Nadolo and Muri ahead of Kobus for sure
Forgot that we had signed that Van Wyk but my worry is why did he tumble down the pecking order for Saints?
I wonder if to some extent, they're focusing on who they'll have next year
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CrumblingTerrace
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Re: Progress Under Borthwick

Post by CrumblingTerrace »

Borthwick has improved things hugely and is The Man to lead us forward. I'm sure most of us are significantly happier than the Geordan era.

However, being objective about it, we're now almost as close to Worcester at the bottom as we are Quins in 4th. Given our general improvement, that's disappointing.
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