Progress Under Borthwick

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Noggs
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Re: Progress Under Borthwick

Post by Noggs »

It is a difficult area of the game will different officials giving slightly different interpretation of the rules but I don't see it as a big problem in general. As always there are times we don't agree with the decisions made :smt009
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Cardiff Tig
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Re: Progress Under Borthwick

Post by Cardiff Tig »

99% of the time players control where they fall during a tackle.

Watch a game where the refs pings them a few times at the start of the game and suddenly players stop ending up on the wrong side in the first place...
GETHIN EXILE
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Re: Progress Under Borthwick

Post by GETHIN EXILE »

There seems to have been a shift in emphasis over the years as far as the tackle is concerned. When i learned to play the game the idea was to tackle a player around the legs as as soon as the tackle was made the ball had to be released, since then we have seen the so called "choke tackle" which is just a way of forming a maul but with players allowed to join from the wrong side, tackled players allowed to hold onto the ball but tacklers told to release and roll away - A tackle is not complete until the ball has been released, passed or placed. Tackled players holding the ball off the ground while other players bind together over the top of them - not a ruck as ball is off the ground - defenders told to get back if they dare to try and take the ball from behind the back foot in such situation. The "caterpillar" with too many players not bound properly. "Guards" stood to the side to prevent the charge down of box kicks. I think its time to get back to some basic interpretations - all tackles must be made no higher than the waistline, players must release the ball once any part of their body other than the soles of their feet touch the ground.

Further more if a player is being driven forward by team mates and is tackled if any of those team mates go to ground as part of the tackle they should be penalised as too often they are deliberately sealing off.

When a tackle is made any player who arrives to form a ruck and has hands on the ground to be penalised - how often are the attacking sides first 2 players joining the ruck either on one knee or have their bodies over the top of the tackled playerwith their hands on the floor.

Enforce that players joining a ruck must bind onto an opponent not just try to knock them backwards.
TigerBoy1880
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Re: Progress Under Borthwick

Post by TigerBoy1880 »

I love how people say we have improved in certain areas such as fitness and defence which is down to Walters and Ford so we can’t really give Borthwick any credit. He’s the leader. It could be that he has set his expectations higher than Murphy meaning better results in those areas. You’ll never see Dean Richards on the training field actually coaching any area but he seems to get the plaudits and rightly so of course!
jgriffin
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Re: Progress Under Borthwick

Post by jgriffin »

GETHIN EXILE wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 1:46 pm There seems to have been a shift in emphasis over the years as far as the tackle is concerned. When i learned to play the game the idea was to tackle a player around the legs as as soon as the tackle was made the ball had to be released, since then we have seen the so called "choke tackle" which is just a way of forming a maul but with players allowed to join from the wrong side, tackled players allowed to hold onto the ball but tacklers told to release and roll away - A tackle is not complete until the ball has been released, passed or placed. Tackled players holding the ball off the ground while other players bind together over the top of them - not a ruck as ball is off the ground - defenders told to get back if they dare to try and take the ball from behind the back foot in such situation. The "caterpillar" with too many players not bound properly. "Guards" stood to the side to prevent the charge down of box kicks. I think its time to get back to some basic interpretations - all tackles must be made no higher than the waistline, players must release the ball once any part of their body other than the soles of their feet touch the ground.

Further more if a player is being driven forward by team mates and is tackled if any of those team mates go to ground as part of the tackle they should be penalised as too often they are deliberately sealing off.

When a tackle is made any player who arrives to form a ruck and has hands on the ground to be penalised - how often are the attacking sides first 2 players joining the ruck either on one knee or have their bodies over the top of the tackled playerwith their hands on the floor.

Enforce that players joining a ruck must bind onto an opponent not just try to knock them backwards.
Pretty well what some of us keep saying, but expressed well!
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Wayne Richardson Fan Club
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Re: Progress Under Borthwick

Post by Wayne Richardson Fan Club »

TigerBoy1880 wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 4:55 pm I love how people say we have improved in certain areas such as fitness and defence which is down to Walters and Ford so we can’t really give Borthwick any credit. He’s the leader. It could be that he has set his expectations higher than Murphy meaning better results in those areas. You’ll never see Dean Richards on the training field actually coaching any area but he seems to get the plaudits and rightly so of course!
Well who is going to tell Deano it isn't his praise to have....the flip side is of course Deano takes all the flack & took the majority of blood gate as well..oh & apologised fully, took his medicine...unlike some other teams caught out in the recent past.
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TigerBoy1880
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Re: Progress Under Borthwick

Post by TigerBoy1880 »

Wayne Richardson Fan Club wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 6:29 pm
TigerBoy1880 wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 4:55 pm I love how people say we have improved in certain areas such as fitness and defence which is down to Walters and Ford so we can’t really give Borthwick any credit. He’s the leader. It could be that he has set his expectations higher than Murphy meaning better results in those areas. You’ll never see Dean Richards on the training field actually coaching any area but he seems to get the plaudits and rightly so of course!
Well who is going to tell Deano it isn't his praise to have....the flip side is of course Deano takes all the flack & took the majority of blood gate as well..oh & apologised fully, took his medicine...unlike some other teams caught out in the recent past.
You’ve missed the point completely!
MurphysLaw
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Re: Progress Under Borthwick

Post by MurphysLaw »

[quote=TigerBoy1880 post_id=765277 time=1612284902 user_id=24130]
I love how people say we have improved in certain areas such as fitness and defence which is down to Walters and Ford so we can’t really give Borthwick any credit. He’s the leader. It could be that he has set his expectations higher than Murphy meaning better results in those areas. You’ll never see Dean Richards on the training field actually coaching any area but he seems to get the plaudits and rightly so of course!
[/quote]


Are people saying that they can't give Borthwick any credit?
I am not sure about the defence, but as far as general fitness and conditioning is concerned, I think it is absolutely right to credit AW first and foremost. He is a world-class appointment, made following the 'big review', and improvement in this area began when Murphy was around.That does not necessarily 'discredit' SB, as it is an on-going process (in very difficult circumstances at times), and it continues to improve under SB.
If you are saying that SB has had a specific influence on the fitness and conditioning of the squad since he took the reins, I doubt it. Happy to change my mind if you have anything concrete though.

Whilst it is right that those at the top should take responsibility for everything within their remit, good and bad, does that preclude others within the team getting credit, or otherwise, when it is due?
That goes for SB, as well as Deano, as you cite. Although, perhaps not the best example, as Newcastle seem to have the structure that Tigers recently abandoned, with Deano as the Director of Rugby, but again I think Head Coach, Dave Walder and his team of specialist coaches, including Nick Easter as Defence Coach, have also been getting plaudits.
Yorkshire man
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Re: Progress Under Borthwick

Post by Yorkshire man »

The one thing that has struck me more than anything else was the game against Bath, who I accept are not the team they were 18 months ago. We went behind early in the game in a disappointing fashion. This time last season we would more than likely have folded at that point and finished up getting thumped points wise. We didn't. The team gathered themselves fought back and won the game. That attitude which has been shown on more than one occasion on the field is what has struck me more than anything else. If the current coaching staff have done nothing else they appear to have installed some pride which has been missing recently.
Cardiff Tig
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Re: Progress Under Borthwick

Post by Cardiff Tig »

I'd argue that what has happened so far would have happened with 95% of head coaches that were hired along with a top conditioning coach. The ship has been steadied.

We now need to push on and improve. I have no idea on a realistic timescale for this as I've never coached a professional sports team :smt003
sapajo
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Re: Progress Under Borthwick

Post by sapajo »

Murphy has gone Borthwick is now in sole charge yet he still persists with kicking the ball and gifting it back to the opposition with all to frequent monotony. Some may call this progress.
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TigerBoy1880
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Re: Progress Under Borthwick

Post by TigerBoy1880 »

sapajo wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:28 pm Murphy has gone Borthwick is now in sole charge yet he still persists with kicking the ball and gifting it back to the opposition with all to frequent monotony. Some may call this progress.
Depends what you call progress? We finished 11th last season so I’d say a higher placed finish will be progress.
RichieB
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Re: Progress Under Borthwick

Post by RichieB »

Well I guess it is all relative. If our performances are still dire but other teams are even worse, is that progress? Conversely if our performances are noticeably improved yet we finish bottom of the league does that mean no progress? Gosh, this is deep.

We all know how dire performances were last season. I guess the answer to the question will only become known as we come towards the end of the season.
TigerBoy1880
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Re: Progress Under Borthwick

Post by TigerBoy1880 »

RichieB wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:53 pm Well I guess it is all relative. If our performances are still dire but other teams are even worse, is that progress? Conversely if our performances are noticeably improved yet we finish bottom of the league does that mean no progress? Gosh, this is deep.

We all know how dire performances were last season. I guess the answer to the question will only become known as we come towards the end of the season.
Well so far, our performances have been better than last season and I’m confident we will finish higher than 11th so, I’d call that progress.
JP14
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Re: Progress Under Borthwick

Post by JP14 »

TigerBoy1880 wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:29 pm
RichieB wrote: Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:53 pm Well I guess it is all relative. If our performances are still dire but other teams are even worse, is that progress? Conversely if our performances are noticeably improved yet we finish bottom of the league does that mean no progress? Gosh, this is deep.

We all know how dire performances were last season. I guess the answer to the question will only become known as we come towards the end of the season.
Well so far, our performances have been better than last season and I’m confident we will finish higher than 11th so, I’d call that progress.
Way too early to call anything in terms of table finishes, as we've barely reached halfway through the league with a table somewhat disfigured by Covid cancellations.
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