Gallagher Premiership Round 6

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Tiglon
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Re: Gallagher Premiership Round 6

Post by Tiglon » Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:29 pm

GETHIN EXILE wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:17 pm
ay2oh wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:25 am
Tackling a players knees is highly dangerous and potentially career ending and should be penalised with a red card
When i was taught to play the game as an 11 year old some 50 years ago one of the maxims driven into us was "he can't run without legs!". Tackling a player around the knees was the norm as it brought them to the ground more quickly thus making the player release the ball. The problem with "modern rugby" is referees do not make the tackled player release the ball quickly enough, all this " tackler roll away" is concentrating on the wrong part of the tackle, until the ball is released or placed then the tackle is not complete. Too often a ruck is called when the tackled player is either holding the ball off the ground or still has a hand on top of the ball often with his hand behind the back foot of the last bound in defender.
The problem is that Cowan-Dickie's actions did not constitute a tackle.

ay2oh
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Re: Gallagher Premiership Round 6

Post by ay2oh » Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:35 pm

Wrapping your arms around a players legs is one thing but diving with your upper body against their knees is something entirely different.
A2O

Crofty
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Re: Gallagher Premiership Round 6

Post by Crofty » Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:08 pm

GETHIN EXILE wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:17 pm
ay2oh wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:25 am
Tackling a players knees is highly dangerous and potentially career ending and should be penalised with a red card
When i was taught to play the game as an 11 year old some 50 years ago one of the maxims driven into us was "he can't run without legs!". Tackling a player around the knees was the norm as it brought them to the ground more quickly thus making the player release the ball. The problem with "modern rugby" is referees do not make the tackled player release the ball quickly enough, all this " tackler roll away" is concentrating on the wrong part of the tackle, until the ball is released or placed then the tackle is not complete. Too often a ruck is called when the tackled player is either holding the ball off the ground or still has a hand on top of the ball often with his hand behind the back foot of the last bound in defender.
I was taught to aim at the hips, get your head on the right side and, if that didn't knock them over then slide down to the knees. Flying at the knees like that risks severe injuries to both players (having lost an ACL and had it reconstructed I would never wish that on anyone and, well, the game is finally starting to take concussion really seriously too, a knee to the head can give you a strong one).
No, not that one!

Remember, whatever you do to the smallest of the backs you do to his prop, and you can't avoid the rucks and mauls forever...

LittleBigG
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Re: Gallagher Premiership Round 6

Post by LittleBigG » Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:38 pm

Crofty wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:08 pm
I was taught to aim at the hips, get your head on the right side and, if that didn't knock them over then slide down to the knees. Flying at the knees like that risks severe injuries to both players (having lost an ACL and had it reconstructed I would never wish that on anyone and, well, the game is finally starting to take concussion really seriously too, a knee to the head can give you a strong one).
This... there are plenty of players nowadays who are only where they are because they are absolute unrelenting units - their techniques in a number of areas leaves a lot to be desired. I've lost count of the number of times over the past few seasons where the game has been (rightly) stopped because someone's got their head on the wrong side in a tackle and took a smack from the hip or knee (and that's not even getting into these not-a-tackle-s)

I've mentioned before that I feel that these straight on "chop tackles" need to be banned (i.e. not tackling and wrapping side-on like Crofty said where you slide down round the knees behind the player) They are often no-armed and the culprits often also get away with it. The stress put on the knees is immense as the joint is not intended to be hyper-extended and there will be many who suffer greatly in later life because of it

That being said, the rules should also be changed (e.g. ban pre-engaged drives, etc) to prevent them from being "required"

LE18
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Re: Gallagher Premiership Round 6

Post by LE18 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:54 pm

I guess by that, that Sinckler has never done a similar tackle when defending a rolling maul inside his own 5 mtrs? :smt018 :smt017

Tiglon
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Re: Gallagher Premiership Round 6

Post by Tiglon » Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:09 pm

LE18 wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:54 pm
I guess by that, that Sinckler has never done a similar tackle when defending a rolling maul inside his own 5 mtrs? :smt018 :smt017
I've seen him do the same when defending pick and go on his own line. It seems to be generally accepted when done in that situation.

As LittleBig says, the rules need to be changed so that it isn't almost impossible to avoid conceding a try without resorting to such "tackles".

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Re: Gallagher Premiership Round 6

Post by BFG » Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:58 am

Tiglon wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:09 pm
LE18 wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:54 pm
I guess by that, that Sinckler has never done a similar tackle when defending a rolling maul inside his own 5 mtrs? :smt018 :smt017
I've seen him do the same when defending pick and go on his own line. It seems to be generally accepted when done in that situation.

As LittleBig says, the rules need to be changed so that it isn't almost impossible to avoid conceding a try without resorting to such "tackles".
I've also seen him penilised for similar.
The frustration was possibly more at the lack of consistency than being an issue of safety.
A defender should have the right to stand his ground and if the ball carrier runs into him head down then that is a situation created by the ball carrier and should not be considered a high tackle.
The try line should also be able to be defended by wrapping up man and ball and taking the weight of the ball carrier to prevent the grounding.
These situations are the ball carriers choice.
Penalising of the high (or a dangerous) tackle should concentrate on when the tackler is coming at the ball carrier with force in my opinion.
The object of the game though is to score tries and the game shouldn't need to be redesigned.

Crofty
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Re: Gallagher Premiership Round 6

Post by Crofty » Sat Jan 16, 2021 1:05 pm

BFG wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:58 am
Tiglon wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:09 pm
LE18 wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:54 pm
I guess by that, that Sinckler has never done a similar tackle when defending a rolling maul inside his own 5 mtrs? :smt018 :smt017
I've seen him do the same when defending pick and go on his own line. It seems to be generally accepted when done in that situation.

As LittleBig says, the rules need to be changed so that it isn't almost impossible to avoid conceding a try without resorting to such "tackles".
I've also seen him penilised for similar.
The frustration was possibly more at the lack of consistency than being an issue of safety.
A defender should have the right to stand his ground and if the ball carrier runs into him head down then that is a situation created by the ball carrier and should not be considered a high tackle.
The try line should also be able to be defended by wrapping up man and ball and taking the weight of the ball carrier to prevent the grounding.
These situations are the ball carriers choice.
Penalising of the high (or a dangerous) tackle should concentrate on when the tackler is coming at the ball carrier with force in my opinion.
The object of the game though is to score tries and the game shouldn't need to be redesigned.
It's a tricky balance to maintain though because if you're off your feet you're out of the game so at what point are you off your feet, for example? Flinging yourself like an Exocet missile isn't acceptable at the breakdown so should it be acceptable at a standing or slow moving target, and in either case what's the justification? Equally, where does the interpretation of this intercect with situations where someone is diving for the try? We can see now that with players getting bigger, heavier and more powerful we have increasing problems with injury, both muscular-skeletal and neurological and if we don't, as a sport, do something about it we risk not having a sport at all before too long.
No, not that one!

Remember, whatever you do to the smallest of the backs you do to his prop, and you can't avoid the rucks and mauls forever...

BFG
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Re: Gallagher Premiership Round 6

Post by BFG » Sat Jan 16, 2021 2:09 pm

Crofty wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 1:05 pm
BFG wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:58 am
Tiglon wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:09 pm


I've seen him do the same when defending pick and go on his own line. It seems to be generally accepted when done in that situation.

As LittleBig says, the rules need to be changed so that it isn't almost impossible to avoid conceding a try without resorting to such "tackles".
I've also seen him penilised for similar.
The frustration was possibly more at the lack of consistency than being an issue of safety.
A defender should have the right to stand his ground and if the ball carrier runs into him head down then that is a situation created by the ball carrier and should not be considered a high tackle.
The try line should also be able to be defended by wrapping up man and ball and taking the weight of the ball carrier to prevent the grounding.
These situations are the ball carriers choice.
Penalising of the high (or a dangerous) tackle should concentrate on when the tackler is coming at the ball carrier with force in my opinion.
The object of the game though is to score tries and the game shouldn't need to be redesigned.
It's a tricky balance to maintain though because if you're off your feet you're out of the game so at what point are you off your feet, for example? Flinging yourself like an Exocet missile isn't acceptable at the breakdown so should it be acceptable at a standing or slow moving target, and in either case what's the justification? Equally, where does the interpretation of this intercect with situations where someone is diving for the try? We can see now that with players getting bigger, heavier and more powerful we have increasing problems with injury, both muscular-skeletal and neurological and if we don't, as a sport, do something about it we risk not having a sport at all before too long.
Yes I agree it is tricky and it always has been but it's not impossible.
When there is force and diving techniques I believe the rules should be applied very strictly.
Rugby is quite safe when played with feet on the ground.
It gives a carrying advantage to the team in possession but you defend momentum by contesting the ball and not by just the collision in my opinion.
That's the foundation for a sport for different shapes and sizes and playing styles rather than a rugby league type game of collisions.
I'd add that what could also help is stopping ball carriers wrapping around the ball and leading with their elbows, this is also something that seems to have become acceptable.

Tiger_in_Birmingham
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Re: Gallagher Premiership Round 6

Post by Tiger_in_Birmingham » Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:55 pm

For me there is a difference between swearing at sir versus around/to sir; the former is a ban, the latter is a warning about future indiscretions.

IMO Sinckler should have been told to cool off and step back and let the captain talk.

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