Autumn Nations Cup

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Tiglon
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Re: Autumn Nations Cup

Post by Tiglon » Sun Nov 15, 2020 1:45 pm

JP14 wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 1:21 pm
Tiglon wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:19 am
JP14 wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:54 am
Georgia need more regular game time against big competition, whilst Italy are demonstrating promising improvement that I feel will warrant their retention in the Six Nations, few nations can field a better back row than Negri, Steyn & Polledri and I hope Garbezi continues his development as the flyhalf the Azzurri have waited decades for.
The other side of that argument is that the 3 back rowers you mention were all born outside of Italy and had their rugby education until at least 20 outside Italy.

So are Italy improving because they are playing in the 6N, or are they getting better/luckier at finding and bringing in imports?

Georgia clearly aren't ready for the 6N yet but need more exposure to top level rugby at both club and international level. If they get this, they probably have more potential than Italy because Georgians actually want to play rugby, whereas Italians all want to play football hence most of their best players growing up in Argentina, South Africa, UK etc.

Italy are doing just enough to justify their continued inclusion, but I can't be the only one getting bored of Italy almost being a sort of adequately bare minimum competitive team for 20 years by rummaging around the rugby playing nations for rejects or Italian heritage. They will never be much more because their children simply do not play rugby. Georgia have the chance to bring more to the sport if we let them.
You're sweeping generalisations undermine your argument quite frankly. yes it's true Negri, Polledri and Steyn were all born outside of Italy but let's look at the Scottish team that beat them, the following players were all born out of Scotland:

Oli Kebble (South Africa)
Duhan van der Merwe (South Africa)
Sam Skinner (England)
Nick Haining (Australia)
Blade Thomson (New Zealand)
Chris Harris (England)
James Lang (England)
WP Nel (South Africa)
Hamish Watson (England)

You say the "children don't want to play rugby" yet their Italian U20s team has been resurgent in recent years with Garbezi, centre Federico Mori and their impressive loosehead Danolo Fischetti being a part of recent U20s sides who all performed considerably well in yesterday's fixture.

I'm all for Georgia getting more exposure and becoming a regular Tier 1 nation, but to suggest that Italy need throwing out of the Six Nations is a tired, baseless comment you would expect to see on Facebook or the Daily Mail comment section.
I think you must be getting confused, because I said "Italy are doing just enough to justify their continued inclusion".

Your original point was that the Italy back row is evidence that exposure to the 6N over 20 years has improved them as a rugby playing nation. My response was that these 3 players would be no better or worse than they are now if Italy had never been in the 6N because they didn't develop their talent in Italy. Talking about other countries that do the same makes zero difference to this argument. The fact that Scotland have many foreign-born players is irrelevant to Italy.

The Italy U20 team finished 11th in the 2008 U20 World Championship. They finished 9th in 2019. Whether that is a significant improvement or not is purely subjective.

The Italy senior team itself won inclusion to the 6N by recording 3 victories over tier 1 nations in 1997 and 2 more in 1998. Between 2000 and 2016 they beat a tier 1 nation every year apart from 5. In the past 4 years they have recorded 0. They were invited to the 6N because they were capable of regularly winning against such opponents - they no longer are. When you look at actual facts, they have not improved, as tempting as it is to keep saying "Ooooh didn't they look promising while they lost that match" every single season.

I really hope this next crop of youngsters is the turning of the tide, and they are showing enough, as I have said a few times now, to still deserve inclusion at this time. However, if you think they have improved since joining the 6N you are buying into a lie.

Tiglon
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Re: Autumn Nations Cup

Post by Tiglon » Sun Nov 15, 2020 1:52 pm

Also their points difference in this years 6N was not only worse than it was in 2000, it was worse than every single season until 2016.

Improvement? What improvement?

Italy were not some hopeless minnows when they joined the 6N, they were actually more competitive than they are now. Crucially, for the Georgia argument, they were also a lot more competitive than Georgia are now.

Old Hob
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Re: Autumn Nations Cup

Post by Old Hob » Sun Nov 15, 2020 2:21 pm

France joined the 5 Nations in 1910 and first won the title in1959.
Omnia dicta fortiora si dicta Latina

Scott1
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Re: Autumn Nations Cup

Post by Scott1 » Sun Nov 15, 2020 2:28 pm

How does Italy’s pre,during and post O Shea tally’s stand up? I’ve got it in my head that they were much better during his reign. Or was that because Zebre and Treviso were performing better?

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Re: Autumn Nations Cup

Post by Crofty » Sun Nov 15, 2020 2:29 pm

Old Hob wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 2:21 pm
France joined the 5 Nations in 1910 and first won the title in1959.
It also took them far longer to record their first win, they recorded fewer wins in their first 20 years than Italy recorded in theirs...

The other question is, let's say, for the sake of the argument, that Italy hadn't made it six nations in 2000, considering how many year Scotland would have had the whitewashed wooden spoon but for a win against Italy, would you be called for the Scots to be bootwd from the 5 Nations? If not, why the difference?
No, not that one!

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Tiglon
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Re: Autumn Nations Cup

Post by Tiglon » Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:26 pm

Who is actually arguing that Italy should be booted/thrown out of the 6N?

As for France...

There were 8 years in the 30's during which they were not in the 5N. There was no tournament at all for 7 years due WWII and 5 years due to WWI.

France were joint champions in 1954. This means they were champions in their 25th tournament. For Italy to equal this, they would have to win the 6N in 2024 - who's willing to put a tenner on that happening? No, me neither.

Even if they did, you have to take into account the respective histories before joining the tournament. France only played their first ever test match in 1906, and rugby did not exist in France until 1870. So, by the time they joined the 5N, they had 40 years of rugby in their country, and 4 years of test matches. I'm not sure when rugby began in Italy, but they played their first international in 1929, 71 years before they joined the 6N.

France also had the inconvenience of about 2.5 million of it's population dying in wars (many of whom were young men) between joining the 5N and first becoming champions.

Context.

JP14
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Re: Autumn Nations Cup

Post by JP14 » Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:14 pm

Tiglon wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 1:45 pm
JP14 wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 1:21 pm
Tiglon wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:19 am


The other side of that argument is that the 3 back rowers you mention were all born outside of Italy and had their rugby education until at least 20 outside Italy.

So are Italy improving because they are playing in the 6N, or are they getting better/luckier at finding and bringing in imports?

Georgia clearly aren't ready for the 6N yet but need more exposure to top level rugby at both club and international level. If they get this, they probably have more potential than Italy because Georgians actually want to play rugby, whereas Italians all want to play football hence most of their best players growing up in Argentina, South Africa, UK etc.

Italy are doing just enough to justify their continued inclusion, but I can't be the only one getting bored of Italy almost being a sort of adequately bare minimum competitive team for 20 years by rummaging around the rugby playing nations for rejects or Italian heritage. They will never be much more because their children simply do not play rugby. Georgia have the chance to bring more to the sport if we let them.
You're sweeping generalisations undermine your argument quite frankly. yes it's true Negri, Polledri and Steyn were all born outside of Italy but let's look at the Scottish team that beat them, the following players were all born out of Scotland:

Oli Kebble (South Africa)
Duhan van der Merwe (South Africa)
Sam Skinner (England)
Nick Haining (Australia)
Blade Thomson (New Zealand)
Chris Harris (England)
James Lang (England)
WP Nel (South Africa)
Hamish Watson (England)

You say the "children don't want to play rugby" yet their Italian U20s team has been resurgent in recent years with Garbezi, centre Federico Mori and their impressive loosehead Danolo Fischetti being a part of recent U20s sides who all performed considerably well in yesterday's fixture.

I'm all for Georgia getting more exposure and becoming a regular Tier 1 nation, but to suggest that Italy need throwing out of the Six Nations is a tired, baseless comment you would expect to see on Facebook or the Daily Mail comment section.
I think you must be getting confused, because I said "Italy are doing just enough to justify their continued inclusion".

Your original point was that the Italy back row is evidence that exposure to the 6N over 20 years has improved them as a rugby playing nation. My response was that these 3 players would be no better or worse than they are now if Italy had never been in the 6N because they didn't develop their talent in Italy. Talking about other countries that do the same makes zero difference to this argument. The fact that Scotland have many foreign-born players is irrelevant to Italy.

The Italy U20 team finished 11th in the 2008 U20 World Championship. They finished 9th in 2019. Whether that is a significant improvement or not is purely subjective.

The Italy senior team itself won inclusion to the 6N by recording 3 victories over tier 1 nations in 1997 and 2 more in 1998. Between 2000 and 2016 they beat a tier 1 nation every year apart from 5. In the past 4 years they have recorded 0. They were invited to the 6N because they were capable of regularly winning against such opponents - they no longer are. When you look at actual facts, they have not improved, as tempting as it is to keep saying "Ooooh didn't they look promising while they lost that match" every single season.

I really hope this next crop of youngsters is the turning of the tide, and they are showing enough, as I have said a few times now, to still deserve inclusion at this time. However, if you think they have improved since joining the 6N you are buying into a lie.
I don't think they have improved since joining the 2000 Six Nations in that sense, they have stagnated somewhat. Personally in my opinion having two teams in the Pro14 instead of trying to develop their own National Championship was a mistake, only Benetton has been competitive recently (owing to the behind-the-scenes work Conor O'Shea did). That in turn has led to poorer players stemming into the national team.

I think their loss to Scotland is also testament to their opponents, a Scotland side of a few years ago would have crumbled but particularly in the last 12 months they have developed a very good set piece (especially in the Maul) and defence that they have been lacking for some time.
"Our Greatest Glory Is Not In Never Failing, But In Rising Every Time We Fall" Confucius

TigerFeetSteve
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Re: Autumn Nations Cup

Post by TigerFeetSteve » Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:34 pm

JP14 wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:14 pm
Tiglon wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 1:45 pm
JP14 wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 1:21 pm


You're sweeping generalisations undermine your argument quite frankly. yes it's true Negri, Polledri and Steyn were all born outside of Italy but let's look at the Scottish team that beat them, the following players were all born out of Scotland:

Oli Kebble (South Africa)
Duhan van der Merwe (South Africa)
Sam Skinner (England)
Nick Haining (Australia)
Blade Thomson (New Zealand)
Chris Harris (England)
James Lang (England)
WP Nel (South Africa)
Hamish Watson (England)

You say the "children don't want to play rugby" yet their Italian U20s team has been resurgent in recent years with Garbezi, centre Federico Mori and their impressive loosehead Danolo Fischetti being a part of recent U20s sides who all performed considerably well in yesterday's fixture.

I'm all for Georgia getting more exposure and becoming a regular Tier 1 nation, but to suggest that Italy need throwing out of the Six Nations is a tired, baseless comment you would expect to see on Facebook or the Daily Mail comment section.
I think you must be getting confused, because I said "Italy are doing just enough to justify their continued inclusion".

Your original point was that the Italy back row is evidence that exposure to the 6N over 20 years has improved them as a rugby playing nation. My response was that these 3 players would be no better or worse than they are now if Italy had never been in the 6N because they didn't develop their talent in Italy. Talking about other countries that do the same makes zero difference to this argument. The fact that Scotland have many foreign-born players is irrelevant to Italy.

The Italy U20 team finished 11th in the 2008 U20 World Championship. They finished 9th in 2019. Whether that is a significant improvement or not is purely subjective.

The Italy senior team itself won inclusion to the 6N by recording 3 victories over tier 1 nations in 1997 and 2 more in 1998. Between 2000 and 2016 they beat a tier 1 nation every year apart from 5. In the past 4 years they have recorded 0. They were invited to the 6N because they were capable of regularly winning against such opponents - they no longer are. When you look at actual facts, they have not improved, as tempting as it is to keep saying "Ooooh didn't they look promising while they lost that match" every single season.

I really hope this next crop of youngsters is the turning of the tide, and they are showing enough, as I have said a few times now, to still deserve inclusion at this time. However, if you think they have improved since joining the 6N you are buying into a lie.
I don't think they have improved since joining the 2000 Six Nations in that sense, they have stagnated somewhat. Personally in my opinion having two teams in the Pro14 instead of trying to develop their own National Championship was a mistake, only Benetton has been competitive recently (owing to the behind-the-scenes work Conor O'Shea did). That in turn has led to poorer players stemming into the national team.

I think their loss to Scotland is also testament to their opponents, a Scotland side of a few years ago would have crumbled but particularly in the last 12 months they have developed a very good set piece (especially in the Maul) and defence that they have been lacking for some time.
I think Italy have progressed. They previously were almost entirely dependent on a couple of star players like Dominguez or Troncon when they started. Now they are a much more rounded team and you can't look at them and say oh X or Y isn't international class, even when you look at the bench. That was not always the case. Add Dominguez at his peak to their current team and they would not be last every year (in fact I think that would be quite rare). This year Garbisi has shown flashes to say he could be the real successor to Dominguez and that's very exciting for them going forward.

Professionalism in Rugby has definitely slowed improvements too as all nations they play now have playing pools of players who are all fully professional. Gaining ground vs professionals is tougher than doing similar against amateur players.
Used to run around with an 11, 14 or 15 on my back.

tigerburnie
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Re: Autumn Nations Cup

Post by tigerburnie » Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:01 pm

There should be a league with promotion and relegation, but then those protecting their own end will demand ring fencing, just like the leagues. I'm finding watching tiddlywinks is a lot less stressful.
There's a bit of a party atmosphere around Bath this afternoon - but you wouldn't get that at Leicester if we finished ninth." Richard Cockerill 7/5/16

mol2
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Re: Autumn Nations Cup

Post by mol2 » Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:57 pm

England learned a few things.
Their starting front row looked better than the bench front row.
When will Jones accept that Genge is better in the scrum and in the loose than Vunipola. The latter has seemingly lost his previous mobility as a result of bulking up / getting fat to try and deal with the heavier scrummaging sides. The trouble is he is still less of a scrummager than Marler and Genge and has nothing in the loose to suggest he merits selection ahead of them.

Tight head is looking brighter. Sinckler can scrummage these days an there’s players who have taken on the baton from Dan Cole.

Who is our back up No8? Who are our best back rows. We have plenty of back rows so why play Itoje at 6? He is a brilliant player. A shoe in in any side at lock. Yes good enough to play internationally in the back row, but a waste of his talents and a waste of an opportunity to play one of the others fighting for that place.

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Re: Autumn Nations Cup

Post by Robespierre » Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:25 pm

I didn’t understand Eddie (not unusual!) playing Itoje at 6, when there are outstanding regular 6s, like Ted Hill, who fully deserve an opportunity to play for England.
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Re: Autumn Nations Cup

Post by Leicestertinytiger » Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:56 pm

mol2 wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:57 pm
England learned a few things.
Their starting front row looked better than the bench front row.
When will Jones accept that Genge is better in the scrum and in the loose than Vunipola. The latter has seemingly lost his previous mobility as a result of bulking up / getting fat to try and deal with the heavier scrummaging sides. The trouble is he is still less of a scrummager than Marler and Genge and has nothing in the loose to suggest he merits selection ahead of them.

Tight head is looking brighter. Sinckler can scrummage these days an there’s players who have taken on the baton from Dan Cole.

Who is our back up No8? Who are our best back rows. We have plenty of back rows so why play Itoje at 6? He is a brilliant player. A shoe in in any side at lock. Yes good enough to play internationally in the back row, but a waste of his talents and a waste of an opportunity to play one of the others fighting for that place.
Agreed, would like to see the same front row against Ireland with Marler and Sinckler on the bench. Think both Vunipolas need to find some form and could do with some rest. Underhill, Curry and Earl in the backrow for me with Willis on the bench.

Also attack seems to miss something without Ford, really hope he’s back soon.

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Re: Autumn Nations Cup

Post by Not a jock » Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:37 pm

I think Italy is improving but the others are improving more so the gap is widening. It could mirror what has happened in he English Premiership.

Scott1
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Re: Autumn Nations Cup

Post by Scott1 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:51 pm

Daily Mail saying Willis is being cut

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Re: Autumn Nations Cup

Post by Chobbsy » Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:11 pm

Scott1 wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:51 pm
Daily Mail saying Willis is being cut
He seemed to be limping abit when he came off could it be an injury cut?
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/

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