Ford out of England Squad

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sam16111986
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Re: Ford out of England Squad

Post by sam16111986 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 7:08 pm

Tiglon wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:48 pm
sam16111986 wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:26 am
TigerFeetSteve wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:05 pm
If Ford recovers quickly, but others come in and do a job for England. Tigers have good depth at 10 possibly all season, would be interesting to see given centre is a place we lack in depth if we're thinking about moving a 10 out to 12 like England do?

If so which of our 3 leading 10s do we think most likely to be at 12?
More likely to move one of them to 15 and then move Steward into 13 if we're short. Steward at the size he is and with some experience of playing 13 should do fine. I'm not sure Henry or Bonilla have the defensive strength to play 12. Bonilla from his highlights looks quick and we know that with Henry his footwork can get him out of trouble so 15 could work.
Why is there this constant desperation to look for ways to play players out of position?

Why would anyone want to move Steward (a young player just finding his feet in the first team at 15) to an unfamiliar position to make room to play a fly half out of position at 15?
Yeah completely out there asking Steward to play a position he's already played in the first team for Tigers. Ditto Henry. We did say if we were short on centres as well rather than just shoving players out of position for the sake of it.

Though thinking about it the young lad Kelly has looked solid so far so he might get more game time.

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Re: Ford out of England Squad

Post by mol2 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 7:19 pm

Noggs wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:20 am
Squad for Saturday:

ENGLAND MEN XV
15. George Furbank (Northampton Saints, 2 caps)
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 43 caps)
13. Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 50 caps)
12. Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 29 caps)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 56 caps)
10. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 83 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 99 caps)
1. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 59 caps)
2. Jamie George (Saracens, 49 caps)
3. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 35 caps)
4. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 38 caps)
5. Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
6. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 23 caps)
7. Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 18 caps)
8. Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 51 caps)

FINISHERS
16. Tom Dunn, (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
17. Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 18 caps)
18. Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
19. Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 15 caps)
20. Ben Earl (Bristol Bears, 3 caps)
21. Dan Robson (Wasps, 2 caps)
22. Ollie Lawrence (Worcester Warriors, uncapped)
23. Ollie Thorley (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)

Good to see Ben getting his 100th cap :smt023
Don't quite see what justifies Furbank's selection. Capable club player but an international full back?

kk20gb30
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Re: Ford out of England Squad

Post by kk20gb30 » Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:07 am

Believe Furbank has suffered along with the rest of his Northampton colleagues since the restart.However I'm yet to be convinced of his defensive capability at the highest level or his attacking flair.The Full back position may develop into quite an issue for England as the primary facet here is the ability to defend - especially against top class nations - and Mike Brown is still probably 'our' best defensive option.

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Re: Ford out of England Squad

Post by Wayne Richardson Fan Club » Sat Oct 31, 2020 11:39 am

Longer term Englands 15 solution is hopefully just starting out with Tigers.

As for now, I would give Watson a run at 15, one certain thing is Daly shouldn't start a test at 15 again.
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Re: Ford out of England Squad

Post by JP14 » Sat Oct 31, 2020 1:45 pm

If I were England coach I'm not sure Daly would even be in the England squad, but then again I'm not an international coach with the record-equalling test-matches-won record, nor three World Cup silver medals nor a Grand Slam to my name.
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Re: Ford out of England Squad

Post by Leicestertinytiger » Sat Oct 31, 2020 1:52 pm

Yes Daly shouldn’t start at 15. Right okay, we got to the World Cup final with him playing fullback and have won how many games with him there? Granted we lose some defensive qualities, but he more than makes up for that with his attacking qualities in the wide channels, kicking game and ability to slot through the posts from the halfway line.

Maybe in a few years he’ll be back to playing on the left wing if May loses some pace. Steward could be an option by the next World Cup, very Stimpson-esque and solid under the highball. Completely different fullback than Daly.

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Re: Ford out of England Squad

Post by Tiglon » Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:00 pm

Daly is a bit like Itoje - there are some flaws to his game, but he offers things that no one else does. The HC has to weigh up whether his team is better off with someone who is pretty good at everything but outstanding at very little (e.g. Brown), or someone with a few unique qualities and a couple of weaknesses.

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Re: Ford out of England Squad

Post by Wayne Richardson Fan Club » Sat Oct 31, 2020 3:19 pm

Having a non tackling 15 is a odd way of building a successful side in my opinion, you can have all the skills & be defensively sound, I give you Israel Dagg & Ben Smith as 2 examples straight away, without even naming a certain odious ex Wallaby...
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Re: Ford out of England Squad

Post by Tiglon » Sun Nov 01, 2020 2:00 pm

Sadly Israel Dagg and Ben Smith are not English. If there was an English 15 who had the same speed and kicking ability as Daly but was much better at tackling, it would be an easy choice. Does that player exist? If not, it's a choice between whether you want the better tackler or the better kicker/counter attacker. It depends on your personal preference, the opposition, the way you want to play the game and the balance of the other players in the team.

I'd go with Watson more often than not, but I'm not obtuse enough to pretend that there aren't valid reasons for choosing Daly. He has a huge boot from hand and the tee and is very quick. Don't underestimate the benefit of being able to score penalties from an extra 10-15 metres out.

Many top players have glaring weaknesses - if you look at Itoje for England this year he has an awful record for handling errors and penalties conceded. Would you have him in your XV every time? Of course you would, because he wins a lot of turnovers, has a massive work rate and makes a lot of dominant tackles.

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Re: Ford out of England Squad

Post by Wayne Richardson Fan Club » Sun Nov 01, 2020 2:18 pm

Tiglon wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 2:00 pm
Sadly Israel Dagg and Ben Smith are not English. If there was an English 15 who had the same speed and kicking ability as Daly but was much better at tackling, it would be an easy choice. Does that player exist? If not, it's a choice between whether you want the better tackler or the better kicker/counter attacker. It depends on your personal preference, the opposition, the way you want to play the game and the balance of the other players in the team.

I'd go with Watson more often than not, but I'm not obtuse enough to pretend that there aren't valid reasons for choosing Daly. He has a huge boot from hand and the tee and is very quick. Don't underestimate the benefit of being able to score penalties from an extra 10-15 metres out.

Many top players have glaring weaknesses - if you look at Itoje for England this year he has an awful record for handling errors and penalties conceded. Would you have him in your XV every time? Of course you would, because he wins a lot of turnovers, has a massive work rate and makes a lot of dominant tackles.
With a name like Ben Smith, he should of been English!
Not saying Daly shouldn't be in the side just not at 13 or 15 where his defensive issues would be less pronounced. Arguably his best place might be on the bench, his cause was helped yesterday by May looking rusty at best & Furbank looking very ordinary.
It will be interesting to see how certain players look at the end of the AIs.
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Re: Ford out of England Squad

Post by Tiglon » Sun Nov 01, 2020 2:35 pm

Agreed, I think there are a lot of places up for grabs in the England team over the next few months. Daly's versatility makes him an excellent bench candidate, especially when all our wingers are fit.

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Re: Ford out of England Squad

Post by mol2 » Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:03 am

Questions remain about both of the Vunipola brothers. Mako was exposed in the world cup final - arguably the single biggest factor in losing the game and Billy hasn't shown much of late.

Tactically we kicked too much - a good tactic against Ireland who pack the defensive line leaving them vulnerable to the kick chase but against France we just lost possession and even against Italy we made hard work of it because we didn't work their pack hard enough in the first half.

This is where (the out of form) Billy would normally be used. If England were serious about using Curry as an 8 this would have been a game to try it again and give one of the in form back rows a go.

Sarries being relegated will be a headache for EJ with the Vunipolas, George and Itoje getting little meaningful game play once the Autumn internationals are over. Whilst Itoje looks on form the first three looked down right rusty so what form they hope to get and retain playing a division down between the AI's and 6N is anyone's guess work and if I were EJ i might want them to get loaned out to play elsewhere for a while.

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