Offside at a kick off

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chewbacca
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Re: Offside at a kick off

Post by chewbacca » Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:23 pm

Direction of hands, calculating the allowance for momentum etc nightmare. Allowing for momentum a ball thrown flat ( or any pass made where the angle of pass is not sufficient to overcome the momentum on the ball) travels forward relative to its point of origin Surely it would be simpler if a forward pass was defined as any pass where the ball arrives forward of the point from which it was delivered or better still not behind the point of delivery. So flat pass out too. And a knock on is any catch that's fumbled whether it goes forward or backwards or sideways or up or down. :smt003
I'm not cynical just experienced

Old Hob
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Re: Offside at a kick off

Post by Old Hob » Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:26 pm

chewbacca wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:23 pm
Surely it would be simpler if a forward pass was defined as any pass where the ball arrives forward of the point from which it was delivered or better still not behind the point of delivery.
I think that was actually the law when I began :smt017
or am I being dim and missing the sarcasm? It's been a long day.
Omnia dicta fortiora si dicta Latina

loretta
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Re: Offside at a kick off

Post by loretta » Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:32 pm

Noggs wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:19 pm
The proposal then is to change the rules with respect to forward passes?

If you have two players running at speed with one on the others shoulder a short inside pass leaving the hand backwards is still likely to be received ahead of the point the ball was passed due to momentum. To try to visually pick up such a pass as being 'forward' if the rules were changed would be virtually impossible in real time so it is much easier for the officials to make the judgement as now by looking at the motion of the player making the pass.

I am convinced that we don't need to change the law on this.
I think you'll find that a law change isn't required. The laws of the game are, unfortunately, not specific on the point of whether the point of reference is the player or the pitch/planet. It merely says forward. What we need is clarification. Without it, we get (unsurprisingly) difference in opinion and "discussion". IIRC, during the most recent WC, a forward pass was judged relative to the pitch, and there was plenty of entertainment there. My personal opinion is that the lazy option has generally been chosen to allow for SH style/entertainment benefit, so a reduction in quality for the purpose of mass appeal. But maybe that's just me.

https://laws.worldrugby.org/?highlight= ... ass&law=11
I find your lack of faith......disturbing.

chewbacca
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Re: Offside at a kick off

Post by chewbacca » Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:49 pm

Old Hob wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:26 pm
chewbacca wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:23 pm
Surely it would be simpler if a forward pass was defined as any pass where the ball arrives forward of the point from which it was delivered or better still not behind the point of delivery.
I think that was actually the law when I began :smt017
or am I being dim and missing the sarcasm? It's been a long day.
Was slightly sarcastic but how it was when I played. Mind you I swear the ball was rounder too made of unfinished leather and covered in some animal fat. That you could pass it at all with any sure direction and weight on a wet day was always in doubt catching it a positive triumph in those conditions.
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h's dad
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Re: Offside at a kick off

Post by h's dad » Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:21 pm

While I have much sympathy with those that feel a pass that is not definitively backwards relative to the point on the ground from which the pass was made, I quite like a game where if a player passes to me and I am not in front of him when he passes, not in front of him when I receive the ball and am not in front of him at any time during the process of the pass, then it is not called forward.

I think somebody mentioned basketball; rugby is a game of movement and ignoring momentum would be make it more akin to netball.
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mol2
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Re: Offside at a kick off

Post by mol2 » Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:26 pm

Noggs wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:45 am
mol2 wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:51 pm

Simple enough for forward passes too. Would get rid of which way was the arm pointing twaddle and whether it was clearly forwards or not. I may well scream if I hear another ref mention momentum! The basic premice of rugby is that the ball can only have forward momentum whilst being carried or kicked forwards. Everything else is just a silly excuse for allowing forward passes.
Sorry but you are wrong on this one. If a ball is being carried at speed it has a forward momentum. If it is passed sideways but slightly backward you may not cancel out all of the forward momentum so the ball can be caught in front of the position it was passed from. The pass itself was backwards and hence not a 'forward' pass.

For this reason judgement has to be made on the direction of the ball as it leaves the hand to determine whether or not the pass was forward.

Over to you for the scream :smt002
Why?
If the pass doesn’t cancel out the forward momentum, it is a forward pass.

If a running player simply drops the ball it is called a knock on so why should it not be a forward pass because he imparts a bit of sideways momentum too.

Even a player running at the pace of Usain Bolt can still throw a pass that does not go forward relative to the pitch. The only flaw with this is that no player runs at the pace of Bolt.
The reality is the player receiving the ball has to be behind the ball carrier, not parallel.

Tiglon
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Re: Offside at a kick off

Post by Tiglon » Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:30 pm

I lost track of the forward pass rules or interpretation of the rules years ago. If I think it looks forward I shout at the TV/pitch and get annoyed if the officials disagree.

I've come to accept the situation.

To be honest, I'm not convinced the officials are sure either. Generally it seems that anything not too egregiously forwards is allowed, but might be checked if a try is scored soon after. The ref will almost never whistle for a forward pass if he thinks a try is imminent, because it's safer for him to check after - cue 10 minutes of replays and confused debate.

h's dad
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Re: Offside at a kick off

Post by h's dad » Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:28 pm

mol2 wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:26 pm
The reality is the player receiving the ball has to be behind the ball carrier, not parallel.
Do you mean that you would prefer it if the player receiving the ball received it behind the point at which the ball was released by the passing player?
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Offside
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Re: Offside at a kick off

Post by Offside » Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:43 am

As Loretta say, no law change is required, just actually following it. In the definitions section at the from “forward“ is defined as “ Forward: Towards the opposition’s dead-ball line.” So a pass forward is one that goes towards the opposition dead-ball line. Nothing regarding the hands. I do like the momentum of the game that a flat pass produces but the skill is to be running in support and not over run the player with the ball as the slow to side step or get tackled before the offload. If there are going to be video replays then judging the flight of the ball relative to the white lines and mowing lines seems easiest too.

wellstiger
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Re: Offside at a kick off

Post by wellstiger » Sat Oct 24, 2020 12:03 pm

Problem is Laws are only enforced if the will is there to enforce it.
Rules are not binding as a Law and offered as guidance only. ( That's why rules are meant to be broken)
Guidance is neither a Law nor a rule and is not worth the paper its written on.

So Sirs and Law providers say Laws are open to interpretation.( only cause they have no will to/ don't want to enforce them)

Oh I am getting cynical in my dotage. It all adds to confusion and why I shout at the TV. The wife thinks I've lost the plot.
Is there a law against it?

Scott1
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Re: Offside at a kick off

Post by Scott1 » Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:31 pm

I blame Dewi Morris 😂

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Re: Offside at a kick off

Post by BFG » Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:48 pm

Offside wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:43 am
As Loretta say, no law change is required, just actually following it. In the definitions section at the from “forward“ is defined as “ Forward: Towards the opposition’s dead-ball line.” So a pass forward is one that goes towards the opposition dead-ball line. Nothing regarding the hands. I do like the momentum of the game that a flat pass produces but the skill is to be running in support and not over run the player with the ball as the slow to side step or get tackled before the offload. If there are going to be video replays then judging the flight of the ball relative to the white lines and mowing lines seems easiest too.
This.
The VAR system being used for offsides in soccer would possibly sort out forward passes in rugby.

nasher
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Re: Offside at a kick off

Post by nasher » Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:00 pm

You jest surely. Soccer is making such a mess of var that it is a laughing stock. :smt038

BFG
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Re: Offside at a kick off

Post by BFG » Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:23 pm

nasher wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:00 pm
You jest surely. Soccer is making such a mess of var that it is a laughing stock. :smt038
Well the discipline is pasta joke now, may as well add another pizza technology!
:smt003

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Re: Offside at a kick off

Post by Noggs » Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:58 pm

mol2 wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:26 pm
Noggs wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:45 am
mol2 wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:51 pm

Simple enough for forward passes too. Would get rid of which way was the arm pointing twaddle and whether it was clearly forwards or not. I may well scream if I hear another ref mention momentum! The basic premice of rugby is that the ball can only have forward momentum whilst being carried or kicked forwards. Everything else is just a silly excuse for allowing forward passes.
Sorry but you are wrong on this one. If a ball is being carried at speed it has a forward momentum. If it is passed sideways but slightly backward you may not cancel out all of the forward momentum so the ball can be caught in front of the position it was passed from. The pass itself was backwards and hence not a 'forward' pass.

For this reason judgement has to be made on the direction of the ball as it leaves the hand to determine whether or not the pass was forward.

Over to you for the scream :smt002
Why?
If the pass doesn’t cancel out the forward momentum, it is a forward pass.

If both player are moving at speed and the receiving player is, say, a metre behind the player passing the ball a ball passed backwards it is still likely to travel forwards relative to the pitch position of the person releasing the pass. This leads to fast running play which I for one would not like to see ended.

If a running player simply drops the ball it is called a knock on so why should it not be a forward pass because he imparts a bit of sideways momentum too.

Even a player running at the pace of Usain Bolt can still throw a pass that does not go forward relative to the pitch. The only flaw with this is that no player runs at the pace of Bolt.
The reality is the player receiving the ball has to be behind the ball carrier, not parallel.
If two player are moving at speed and the receiving payer is, say, a metre or so behind the player with the ball a backward trajectory pass may well travel forward relative to the field position of the person passing the ball when the pass was made. If the officials are looking at player positions it is not that difficult to police the forward pass.
Life can be unpredictable, so eat your pudding first!

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