European finals 2020

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Tiglon
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Re: European finals 2020

Post by Tiglon » Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:07 pm

sam16111986 wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:30 am
ourla wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:07 pm
Both Bristol and Exeter have been well resourced financially so these are not exactly fairy tale victories. However, IMO, they've both gone about the right way, have been patient and become successful through good coaching and hard work.
Whilst Exeter are not short on cash they were the only Prem club to turn a profit last season. If you look at their starting line up it's very clever recruitment a lot of the time.

15 Stuart Hogg - signed from Glasgow
14 Jack Nowell - academy
13 Henry Slade - academy
12 Ian Whitten - signed from Ulster
11 Tom O’Flaherty - signed from Ospreys (though barely featured other than AWC)
10 Joe Simmonds (capt) - academy
9 Jack Maunder - academy
1 Alec Hepburn - signed from Cottesloe in Perth after a spell with London Welsh
2 Luke Cowan-Dickie - academy
3 Harry Williams - signed from Jersey
4 Jonny Gray - signed from Glasgow
5 Jonny Hill - signed from Gloucester development side
6 Dave Ewers - signed up from college
7 Jacques Vermeulen - signed from the Sharks
8 Sam Simmonds - academy

You look at that starting XV and other than the two Scottish signings from the summer they've not gone out and purchased internationals or big names. Bristol have and fair play to them they are doing pretty well. I think there's a lot to be admired by how they've built that team. The bench is much the same as well.
The Exeter debate is an interesting one.

Are they only profitable because they invested in facilities for conferencing etc which make them money? Are some of their costs actually absorbed or subsidised by Rowe's other businesses? Happens a lot.

Is the academy brilliant or do they just have a huge catchment area in Devon and Cornwall where rugby is very popular and there aren't any other Premiership clubs to compete with for talent? All those Nowells etc would have ended up at Bath or Gloucester in the past, so it's interesting to see their academies drying up while Exeter's flourishes.

Regardless, Chiefs are further proof if needed that consistency and youth products are the route to success.

Big Dai
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Re: European finals 2020

Post by Big Dai » Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:35 pm

jgriffin wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:38 am
BFG wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:24 am
Big Dai wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:17 am


Two questions.
Was the ball over the line? And.....
Is the offside line then gone.... It is when you're attacking?

........ I think.
If the ball is over the line then is it a try, if it's held up then is it a scrum to Racing?

What's interesting on this messageboard is the respect for Exeter's forward style, which is close to the style that Cockers was blasted for as being boring rugby by the same posters now congratulating Exeter on here, moaning which contributed to Leicester going out and getting a more expansive coach which then led to the bigger mess that exists now.
This :smt009
As the ball wasn't grounded and was visible was it still in play and fair game for both sides?

Totally absolutely agree re the comments on the forwards here. Invest in a stellar back line (That's nearly always away with Eng ger land) and not in the forwards. Folly in the extreme.......... We start getting it half right........ Then Stanko leaves....... Arghhhhhhh! Another pint please. Thanks
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Scott1
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Re: European finals 2020

Post by Scott1 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:49 pm

BFG wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:24 pm
Scott1 wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:00 pm
jgriffin wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:40 am

Thanks Scott - now provide the counterargument. :smt035
It was more about keep bringing Cockers up,it’s boring as hell! He did himself no favours,the insistence that we wouldn’t be in this mess if he was still here is complete rubbish. Imo of course
Leicester have got worse since they sacked Cockerill, this is a fact.
No-one is claiming that he was perfect, but if you're going to rubbish it then at least offer a sound argument.
We had years of criticism from certain supporters whilst being competitive, no forward offloads in behind, no gain Crane, even Salvi and Parling were often blasted as not being effective enough in attack, all which contributed to them being undervalued and to premature exits.
The rich French clubs were buying up the big ball carriers, Sarries were buying up the Vunipola's and so Leicester were forced to gamble on bargain players like Fonua.
Basically what you now see Chiefs doing well as a team is was what Leicester were doing.
But we were going downhill while he was still there,that’s a FACT too! LI at home anyone? (That’s one of many!) we played nothing liked Chiefs either,ours was more scrum dominance that led to field position more than multi phase play

Tiglon
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Re: European finals 2020

Post by Tiglon » Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:51 pm

Big Dai wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:35 pm
jgriffin wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:38 am
BFG wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:24 am


If the ball is over the line then is it a try, if it's held up then is it a scrum to Racing?

What's interesting on this messageboard is the respect for Exeter's forward style, which is close to the style that Cockers was blasted for as being boring rugby by the same posters now congratulating Exeter on here, moaning which contributed to Leicester going out and getting a more expansive coach which then led to the bigger mess that exists now.
This :smt009
As the ball wasn't grounded and was visible was it still in play and fair game for both sides?

Totally absolutely agree re the comments on the forwards here. Invest in a stellar back line (That's nearly always away with Eng ger land) and not in the forwards. Folly in the extreme.......... We start getting it half right........ Then Stanko leaves....... Arghhhhhhh! Another pint please. Thanks
My initial thought was held up over the line, so scrum Racing.

Looked on replays like the ball wasn't over the line, which I would think should be penalty to Racing because the Chiefs player ran round the side of the breakdown to get to the ball and prevent Racing from playing it.

Big Dai
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Re: European finals 2020

Post by Big Dai » Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:30 pm

I'll ask him...... Don't know if I'll get a reply but I'll ask.
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Re: European finals 2020

Post by WhitecapTiger » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:09 pm

Scott1 wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:49 pm
we played nothing liked Chiefs either,ours was more scrum dominance that led to field position more than multi phase play
But also plenty of kicks to the corner and pushover tries from lineout drives - sound familiar?
Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens.

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Re: European finals 2020

Post by Big Dai » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:18 pm

WhitecapTiger wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:09 pm
Scott1 wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:49 pm
we played nothing liked Chiefs either,ours was more scrum dominance that led to field position more than multi phase play
But also plenty of kicks to the corner and pushover tries from lineout drives - sound familiar?
Didn't they even change a law to pull the line out back to the 5m line to stop us scoring so many that way? 🤔😊
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Bar stool philosopher in the "Wilted Daffodil"

DeadlyDunc
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Re: European finals 2020

Post by DeadlyDunc » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:21 pm

Cockers inherited a good (Very good) squad that he, as DoR, oversaw a gradual decline over many many years across forwards and backs.

There may well be exacerbating reasons for some of the frankly odd recruitment under the latter years of his tenure (that summer we signed a load from Treviso springs to mind) but as the squad got worse so did performances and results.

By the end of his time it was pitiful and it wasn’t far off being that even before the Mauger experiment which was largely welcomed at the time because things were to most showing signs of a long term decline

IMO (and I don’t know any inside info to support this or otherwise) the problems we have now are largely as a result of the poor decisions made by Cockers that took a decade (and some further terrible decisions by others) to reach the recent nadir

Admittedly, if better decisions and recruitment were made immediately post Cockers we might not have plumbed the current depths but it was always going to be a big task to turn things around even then - it’s a mammoth task now unfortunately

Basically IMO Cockers was fine with the players he inherited which no one can deny delivered loads of success but then as his recruitment plans developed, the seeds of what became year on year progressive decline were sown

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Re: European finals 2020

Post by Scott1 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:27 pm

DeadlyDunc wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:21 pm
Cockers inherited a good (Very good) squad that he, as DoR, oversaw a gradual decline over many many years across forwards and backs.

There may well be exacerbating reasons for some of the frankly odd recruitment under the latter years of his tenure (that summer we signed a load from Treviso springs to mind) but as the squad got worse so did performances and results.

By the end of his time it was pitiful and it wasn’t far off being that even before the Mauger experiment which was largely welcomed at the time because things were to most showing signs of a long term decline

IMO (and I don’t know any inside info to support this or otherwise) the problems we have now are largely as a result of the poor decisions made by Cockers that took a decade (and some further terrible decisions by others) to reach the recent nadir

Admittedly, if better decisions and recruitment were made immediately post Cockers we might not have plumbed the current depths but it was always going to be a big task to turn things around even then - it’s a mammoth task now unfortunately

Basically IMO Cockers was fine with the players he inherited which no one can deny delivered loads of success but then as his recruitment plans developed, the seeds of what became year on year progressive decline were sown
Great post!

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Re: European finals 2020

Post by BFG » Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:20 pm

DeadlyDunc wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:21 pm
Cockers inherited a good (Very good) squad that he, as DoR, oversaw a gradual decline over many many years across forwards and backs.

There may well be exacerbating reasons for some of the frankly odd recruitment under the latter years of his tenure (that summer we signed a load from Treviso springs to mind) but as the squad got worse so did performances and results.

By the end of his time it was pitiful and it wasn’t far off being that even before the Mauger experiment which was largely welcomed at the time because things were to most showing signs of a long term decline

IMO (and I don’t know any inside info to support this or otherwise) the problems we have now are largely as a result of the poor decisions made by Cockers that took a decade (and some further terrible decisions by others) to reach the recent nadir

Admittedly, if better decisions and recruitment were made immediately post Cockers we might not have plumbed the current depths but it was always going to be a big task to turn things around even then - it’s a mammoth task now unfortunately

Basically IMO Cockers was fine with the players he inherited which no one can deny delivered loads of success but then as his recruitment plans developed, the seeds of what became year on year progressive decline were sown
The real point is that Leicester played very similar rugby to what Exeter do now and supporters moaning about boring rugby contributed to upsetting the policies of player retention and recruitment back then during a time where more wealthy owners have also entered the sport.
The many factors have all come together to create the current Leicester malaise.
Pinning it on Cockers alone back then is as stupid as the calls for instant success now.

TigerCam
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Re: European finals 2020

Post by TigerCam » Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:24 pm

Tiglon wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:07 pm
sam16111986 wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:30 am
ourla wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:07 pm
Both Bristol and Exeter have been well resourced financially so these are not exactly fairy tale victories. However, IMO, they've both gone about the right way, have been patient and become successful through good coaching and hard work.
Whilst Exeter are not short on cash they were the only Prem club to turn a profit last season. If you look at their starting line up it's very clever recruitment a lot of the time.

15 Stuart Hogg - signed from Glasgow
14 Jack Nowell - academy
13 Henry Slade - academy
12 Ian Whitten - signed from Ulster
11 Tom O’Flaherty - signed from Ospreys (though barely featured other than AWC)
10 Joe Simmonds (capt) - academy
9 Jack Maunder - academy
1 Alec Hepburn - signed from Cottesloe in Perth after a spell with London Welsh
2 Luke Cowan-Dickie - academy
3 Harry Williams - signed from Jersey
4 Jonny Gray - signed from Glasgow
5 Jonny Hill - signed from Gloucester development side
6 Dave Ewers - signed up from college
7 Jacques Vermeulen - signed from the Sharks
8 Sam Simmonds - academy

You look at that starting XV and other than the two Scottish signings from the summer they've not gone out and purchased internationals or big names. Bristol have and fair play to them they are doing pretty well. I think there's a lot to be admired by how they've built that team. The bench is much the same as well.
The Exeter debate is an interesting one.

Are they only profitable because they invested in facilities for conferencing etc which make them money? Are some of their costs actually absorbed or subsidised by Rowe's other businesses? Happens a lot.

Is the academy brilliant or do they just have a huge catchment area in Devon and Cornwall where rugby is very popular and there aren't any other Premiership clubs to compete with for talent? All those Nowells etc would have ended up at Bath or Gloucester in the past, so it's interesting to see their academies drying up while Exeter's flourishes.

Regardless, Chiefs are further proof if needed that consistency and youth products are the route to success.
Not bad for 10 years in the Prem
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Re: European finals 2020

Post by jgriffin » Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:27 pm

Scott1 wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:27 pm
DeadlyDunc wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:21 pm
Cockers inherited a good (Very good) squad that he, as DoR, oversaw a gradual decline over many many years across forwards and backs.

There may well be exacerbating reasons for some of the frankly odd recruitment under the latter years of his tenure (that summer we signed a load from Treviso springs to mind) but as the squad got worse so did performances and results.

By the end of his time it was pitiful and it wasn’t far off being that even before the Mauger experiment which was largely welcomed at the time because things were to most showing signs of a long term decline

IMO (and I don’t know any inside info to support this or otherwise) the problems we have now are largely as a result of the poor decisions made by Cockers that took a decade (and some further terrible decisions by others) to reach the recent nadir

Admittedly, if better decisions and recruitment were made immediately post Cockers we might not have plumbed the current depths but it was always going to be a big task to turn things around even then - it’s a mammoth task now unfortunately

Basically IMO Cockers was fine with the players he inherited which no one can deny delivered loads of success but then as his recruitment plans developed, the seeds of what became year on year progressive decline were sown
Great post!
Suits your agenda...but where's the evidence in terms of lack of titles, top 4 finishes......yes, there was a decline, attributed by many of us to refusal to invest in players or coaching staff by the BoD, and the need for Cockers to have decent coaches instead of the minimal dross he ended up with, with out-of-date attack and defence ideas and disinterest in the Academy products (thanks, MOC). It was sort of the end of an era, but a factor was also senior players.....Cockers wasn't God, but he was a good coach DOR who drove his players, and who has demonstrated his worth at Toulon and Edinburgh. You cannot underestimate the proportion of blame that should stick to the BoD (and don't come up with the Cohen trope, please).
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Re: European finals 2020

Post by jgriffin » Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:30 pm

TigerCam, yes SWComms has been an interesting vehicle used to obscure financial dealing. However Rowe has always canvassed investors, and the more recent influx of Londonistas are seriously minted; Sandy Park is becoming the epicentre of the eastward spread of Exeter with much more development on its way, including the stadium.
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A game played on grass in the open air by teams of XV.

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Re: European finals 2020

Post by ay2oh » Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:42 pm

BFG wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:20 pm
DeadlyDunc wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:21 pm
Cockers inherited a good (Very good) squad that he, as DoR, oversaw a gradual decline over many many years across forwards and backs.

There may well be exacerbating reasons for some of the frankly odd recruitment under the latter years of his tenure (that summer we signed a load from Treviso springs to mind) but as the squad got worse so did performances and results.

By the end of his time it was pitiful and it wasn’t far off being that even before the Mauger experiment which was largely welcomed at the time because things were to most showing signs of a long term decline

IMO (and I don’t know any inside info to support this or otherwise) the problems we have now are largely as a result of the poor decisions made by Cockers that took a decade (and some further terrible decisions by others) to reach the recent nadir

Admittedly, if better decisions and recruitment were made immediately post Cockers we might not have plumbed the current depths but it was always going to be a big task to turn things around even then - it’s a mammoth task now unfortunately

Basically IMO Cockers was fine with the players he inherited which no one can deny delivered loads of success but then as his recruitment plans developed, the seeds of what became year on year progressive decline were sown
The real point is that Leicester played very similar rugby to what Exeter do now and supporters moaning about boring rugby contributed to upsetting the policies of player retention and recruitment back then during a time where more wealthy owners have also entered the sport.
The many factors have all come together to create the current Leicester malaise.
Pinning it on Cockers alone back then is as stupid as the calls for instant success now.
We did play a similar type of rugby although we never cheated and all of our players were complete gentlemen. We didn’t block or dive over rucks or collapse mauls and when we did score from 5 metre scrums it was only because we did not want the backs to get their kit dirty :smt003
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Re: European finals 2020

Post by sam16111986 » Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:48 pm

jgriffin wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:27 pm
Scott1 wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:27 pm
DeadlyDunc wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:21 pm
Cockers inherited a good (Very good) squad that he, as DoR, oversaw a gradual decline over many many years across forwards and backs.

There may well be exacerbating reasons for some of the frankly odd recruitment under the latter years of his tenure (that summer we signed a load from Treviso springs to mind) but as the squad got worse so did performances and results.

By the end of his time it was pitiful and it wasn’t far off being that even before the Mauger experiment which was largely welcomed at the time because things were to most showing signs of a long term decline

IMO (and I don’t know any inside info to support this or otherwise) the problems we have now are largely as a result of the poor decisions made by Cockers that took a decade (and some further terrible decisions by others) to reach the recent nadir

Admittedly, if better decisions and recruitment were made immediately post Cockers we might not have plumbed the current depths but it was always going to be a big task to turn things around even then - it’s a mammoth task now unfortunately

Basically IMO Cockers was fine with the players he inherited which no one can deny delivered loads of success but then as his recruitment plans developed, the seeds of what became year on year progressive decline were sown
Great post!
Suits your agenda...but where's the evidence in terms of lack of titles, top 4 finishes......yes, there was a decline, attributed by many of us to refusal to invest in players or coaching staff by the BoD, and the need for Cockers to have decent coaches instead of the minimal dross he ended up with, with out-of-date attack and defence ideas and disinterest in the Academy products (thanks, MOC). It was sort of the end of an era, but a factor was also senior players.....Cockers wasn't God, but he was a good coach DOR who drove his players, and who has demonstrated his worth at Toulon and Edinburgh. You cannot underestimate the proportion of blame that should stick to the BoD (and don't come up with the Cohen trope, please).
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Cockers is an exceptional head coach but a below average DOR. As the head coach your job is to win on the weekend and Cockers is very good at that. As the DOR your job is to oversee longer term plans, get a development pathway from the academy to the first team and set the culture for the club. Cockers wasn't good at that.

The board were cheap and took the easy option of promoting Cockers from head coach to DOR and MOC from attack coach to head coach. We should have been looking to bring in someone as a direct replacement for Meyer. Let Cockers do what he does best and then have someone working above him to generate the squad and do the planning. Cockers did complain towards the end that the DOR job took him away from the training pitch.

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