The Rebuild

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Tiglon
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The Rebuild

Post by Tiglon » Sun Oct 11, 2020 1:35 pm

I read a lot of cliches on here about a complete reset, an overhaul, a rebuild - whereas Wasps just needed a breath of fresh air. All of that is lovely, but none of it actually means anything.

So, what does a complete "rebuild" actually involve?
When did it begin?
How far along are we?

After MOC we needed new coaches with new ideas and new players. At that point it was true to say that we needed a complete overhaul. That, for me, is when the rebuild started. GM was given the HC role to hold the fort while we engaged in our search followed by the lengthy wait for SB. In the two years since then we have seen talented youngsters emerge and a much improved recruitment strategy.

So the foundations have been laid, we have the coaches that we think will take us into the future, and we have a talented and balanced squad of players.

The next question is, how long does it take for a group of players to gel, and how long does it take for a HC to stamp his mark on a team and have them playing how he wants?

westwinds31
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Re: The Rebuild

Post by westwinds31 » Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:05 pm

Wasps just lost their way a bit. The structure, quality and personnel were all in place, they just needed a reset. Now look at them.

I’m not bothered about how it’s happened, it’s all done now, but the question should of how long will it take to get back is a tough one. Assuming our fitness will be as good as any other side, under Walters, we know that whatever side takes the field, they’ll go for a full 80+ minutes. I still think they will have to be some more recruitment to get us back, as we’re not good enough in several positions. I’m sure Borthwick knows this. Looking around the Prem, some of the overseas players brought in that, let’s be honest nobody had heard of, are working wonders for our rivals. Those are the players that we should be targeting....or we wait for a bunch of youngsters to see if any of them can make an impact at first team level. I suspect a mixture of both would be good, in keeping with local lads playing for the club. From what I’ve seen, Steward is the best of these and looked the part, all others have shown promise but nothing more. What chance of the other youngsters breaking through and making a real difference ?

With our current squad and being able to put a full strength 23 out every week....and with no injuries....I don’t think we will be relegated but won’t make top 6. With decent recruitment and continuity in coaching staff, it could be 3-5 years to start challenging again.

Tiglon
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Re: The Rebuild

Post by Tiglon » Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:29 pm

If you were to make a XV from Wasps and Tigers, what would it look like? I would go with something like:

Cole
Taylor
Genge
Launchbury
Lavanini
Willis
Taufua
Liebenberg
Robson
Ford
Nadolo
Gopperth
Fekitoa
Bassett
Murimurivalu

Seems pretty even to me. OK, Barbeary might be in there in 6 months, and you could go for Minozzi instead of Muri (but Steward might be walking into 15 after a few more matches), perhaps Shields ahead of Taufua or Liebenberg. Otherwise, that's 8 Tigers and 7 Wasps. Is their squad really much better than ours? Are we really 3-5 years away from having players good enough to compete with them?

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Re: The Rebuild

Post by Dokie » Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:44 pm

Tiglon wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:29 pm
If you were to make a XV from Wasps and Tigers, what would it look like? I would go with something like:

Cole
Taylor
Genge
Launchbury
Lavanini
Willis
Taufua
Liebenberg
Robson
Ford
Nadolo
Gopperth
Fekitoa
Bassett
Murimurivalu

Seems pretty even to me. OK, Barbeary might be in there in 6 months, and you could go for Minozzi instead of Muri (but Steward might be walking into 15 after a few more matches), perhaps Shields ahead of Taufua or Liebenberg. Otherwise, that's 8 Tigers and 7 Wasps. Is their squad really much better than ours? Are we really 3-5 years away from having players good enough to compete with them?
Brookes for Cole
Rowlands for Lavanini
Young for Taufua
Kibrigie for Bassett
Steward for Muri

That’s a 10-5 split but it’s not the numbers, it’s the style of play and the intent to play which are the biggest factors.

Leicestertinytiger
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Re: The Rebuild

Post by Leicestertinytiger » Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:49 pm

Going to be difficult to guess next season given the amount of games our internationals might be missing. However, on paper we’ve got a very good squad. Only problem is for the last few seasons I think we’ve had a good starting XV. Hopefully this time we’ve got better strength in depth but time will tell.

Like people have said, compare our players with Wasps and the likes of Bristol, on paper we’ve also got quality.

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Re: The Rebuild

Post by jgriffin » Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:56 pm

Realistically, if we make 7/8 but are close to 5 on points before bonuses, then that would be a reasonable result; scoring more tries comes with confidence in each other, a strong mentality and good coaching reaching towards its potential. There may be a point in the next season - assuming it occurs - that we look back at and say - that's when it all started to come together. I have a lot more confidence that it will occur, than I have done since 2013-4.
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ay2oh
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Re: The Rebuild

Post by ay2oh » Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:59 pm

Dokie wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:44 pm
Tiglon wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:29 pm
If you were to make a XV from Wasps and Tigers, what would it look like? I would go with something like:

Cole
Taylor
Genge
Launchbury
Lavanini
Willis
Taufua
Liebenberg
Robson
Ford
Nadolo
Gopperth
Fekitoa
Bassett
Murimurivalu

Seems pretty even to me. OK, Barbeary might be in there in 6 months, and you could go for Minozzi instead of Muri (but Steward might be walking into 15 after a few more matches), perhaps Shields ahead of Taufua or Liebenberg. Otherwise, that's 8 Tigers and 7 Wasps. Is their squad really much better than ours? Are we really 3-5 years away from having players good enough to compete with them?
Brookes for Cole
Rowlands for Lavanini
Young for Taufua
Kibrigie for Bassett
Steward for Muri

That’s a 10-5 split but it’s not the numbers, it’s the style of play and the intent to play which are the biggest factors.
Brookes for Cole 😂 Brookes is the most penalised prop in the league and both Cole and Leatigaga are both far better than him
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Wayne Richardson Fan Club
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Re: The Rebuild

Post by Wayne Richardson Fan Club » Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:19 pm

Didn't Ellis ask Brookes how many caps he got one game after turning him inside out again.

Wasps at present are at least the sum of their parts, we certainly are not.
To win is not as important as playing with style!

ay2oh
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Re: The Rebuild

Post by ay2oh » Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:31 pm

Wayne Richardson Fan Club wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:19 pm
Didn't Ellis ask Brookes how many caps he got one game after turning him inside out again.

Wasps at present are at least the sum of their parts, we certainly are not.
I’d go so far as to say that Wasps are the most attractive team in the league to watch at present and I pray that they beat Exeter in the final.
A2O

sapajo
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Re: The Rebuild

Post by sapajo » Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:34 pm

As I have stated before Borthwick was unable or unwilling to divulge any improvement timescales or table finish aspirations when asked on the Zoom open supporters forum. I would link to think that he has both on his new seasons performance targets and that they have been set high. Seems a number of folks on here are content to sit back and wait for however long it takes to get back to the top of English rugby just as long as we do not get relegated. We all have different expectations and it will be interesting to see for just how much longer this content with the status quo shall continue.

The dismissal of Blacketts performance at Wasps is bizarre, reminds me of the not invented here syndrome.
Without hope we are nothing, keep the faith, a Tiger for eternity

Tiglon
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Re: The Rebuild

Post by Tiglon » Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:03 pm

Wasps at present are at least the sum of their parts, we certainly are not.
That’s a 10-5 split but it’s not the numbers, it’s the style of play and the intent to play which are the biggest factors.
Exactly. We don't have a weaker team, that isn't the issue. So the recruitment is pretty much there, the playing squad has been "rebuilt". We can put a tick in that box. By the way, if we announced that we had swapped Brookes, Rowlands and Young for Cole, Lavanini and Taufua, I think there would be more than a little outrage amongst the Tigers supporters!
The dismissal of Blacketts performance at Wasps is bizarre, reminds me of the not invented here syndrome.
I think it's too early to say that the revival is all down to Blackett. He's been there for 4/5 years (albeit in a different role).

If you're looking for events that coincide neatly with Wasps' downturn in 2018 and resurgence in 2020, it's worth looking at Lima Sopoaga's arrival and departure dates...

BFG
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Re: The Rebuild

Post by BFG » Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:17 pm

Missed tackles have been an issue for quite a while, coming about initially from poor recruitment during Cockers tenure where Leicester were physically overrun which evolved into a lack of continuity and confidence.
I expect SB knows what he is doing.
Defence needs sorting out, individual tackling and systems leading to good all round defence, the two need eachother.
It's a bit different for a team like Wasps, the message is the same even if the messenger has changed, and I think had Jack Willis not got injured then Dai Young might still be at Wasps.

kpj tiger
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Re: The Rebuild

Post by kpj tiger » Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:42 pm

Tiglon wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:03 pm
Wasps at present are at least the sum of their parts, we certainly are not.
That’s a 10-5 split but it’s not the numbers, it’s the style of play and the intent to play which are the biggest factors.
Exactly. We don't have a weaker team, that isn't the issue. So the recruitment is pretty much there, the playing squad has been "rebuilt". We can put a tick in that box. By the way, if we announced that we had swapped Brookes, Rowlands and Young for Cole, Lavanini and Taufua, I think there would be more than a little outrage amongst the Tigers supporters!
The dismissal of Blacketts performance at Wasps is bizarre, reminds me of the not invented here syndrome.
I think it's too early to say that the revival is all down to Blackett. He's been there for 4/5 years (albeit in a different role).

If you're looking for events that coincide neatly with Wasps' downturn in 2018 and resurgence in 2020, it's worth looking at Lima Sopoaga's arrival and departure dates...
He hasn't left yet, hes just not picked

Tiglon
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Re: The Rebuild

Post by Tiglon » Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:57 pm

kpj tiger wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:42 pm
Tiglon wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:03 pm
Wasps at present are at least the sum of their parts, we certainly are not.
That’s a 10-5 split but it’s not the numbers, it’s the style of play and the intent to play which are the biggest factors.
Exactly. We don't have a weaker team, that isn't the issue. So the recruitment is pretty much there, the playing squad has been "rebuilt". We can put a tick in that box. By the way, if we announced that we had swapped Brookes, Rowlands and Young for Cole, Lavanini and Taufua, I think there would be more than a little outrage amongst the Tigers supporters!
The dismissal of Blacketts performance at Wasps is bizarre, reminds me of the not invented here syndrome.
I think it's too early to say that the revival is all down to Blackett. He's been there for 4/5 years (albeit in a different role).

If you're looking for events that coincide neatly with Wasps' downturn in 2018 and resurgence in 2020, it's worth looking at Lima Sopoaga's arrival and departure dates...
He hasn't left yet, hes just not picked
Ah, thank you, I thought he only had a two year contract.

westwinds31
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Re: The Rebuild

Post by westwinds31 » Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:46 pm

ay2oh wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:59 pm
Dokie wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:44 pm
Tiglon wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 2:29 pm
If you were to make a XV from Wasps and Tigers, what would it look like? I would go with something like:

Cole
Taylor
Genge
Launchbury
Lavanini
Willis
Taufua
Liebenberg
Robson
Ford
Nadolo
Gopperth
Fekitoa
Bassett
Murimurivalu

Seems pretty even to me. OK, Barbeary might be in there in 6 months, and you could go for Minozzi instead of Muri (but Steward might be walking into 15 after a few more matches), perhaps Shields ahead of Taufua or Liebenberg. Otherwise, that's 8 Tigers and 7 Wasps. Is their squad really much better than ours? Are we really 3-5 years away from having players good enough to compete with them?
Brookes for Cole
Rowlands for Lavanini
Young for Taufua
Kibrigie for Bassett
Steward for Muri

That’s a 10-5 split but it’s not the numbers, it’s the style of play and the intent to play which are the biggest factors.
Brookes for Cole 😂 Brookes is the most penalised prop in the league and both Cole and Leatigaga are both far better than him
Cole is no stranger to a penalty let’s be honest. Or a trundle forward on his own with no support.

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