Rugby And all sports’ fans matter!

[Tiglon]

This year has been pretty challenging for most people in most walks of lives, in many different ways.

Any of us who still have a job, a place to live and our health are probably the lucky ones.

P.S. we're not actually at war, there is no front line, it isn't 1918, 98% of the population thinks they're a key worker and the phrase "new normal" is utterly meaningless. Oh, and "ramping up" is just a moronic way of saying "increasing".

[JP14]

This year has been pretty challenging for most people in most walks of lives, in many different ways.

Any of us who still have a job, a place to live and our health are probably the lucky ones.

P.S. we're not actually at war, there is no front line, it isn't 1918, 98% of the population thinks they're a key worker and the phrase "new normal" is utterly meaningless. Oh, and "ramping up" is just a moronic way of saying "increasing".

That’s why I hate our PM’s ridiculous war rhetoric when talking about the virus.

[Freebird]

Kids getting some education (albeit underfunded) is extremely important.
A few folk being able to go orienteering is not, the risk of transmission is obviously less but other than someone tripping up on a twig whilst engrossed in a compass and then requiring the air ambulance to attend there isn't really any longer term risks in orienteering comparable to the potential long term damage of kids missing out on an education.
I don't believe orienteering is a priority right now, even though a few teachers might prefer some extra paid leave to take part.

OK you think working in an underfunded school with a whole year (9) and 11 teachers out, with support staff at risk as well is a joking matter? So underfunded we can't afford textbooks, decent computer and proper UPVC screening, let alone socially distance? Especially with some kids having parents who tell them COVID is a leftwing scam/paedophile plot etc, and refuse to wear masks etc, but we can't exclude them on those grounds? The only mental health problems are those generated at home or by the test-test-test system, to go with the normal 10% of kids with moderate to serious personality and anxiety issues. We deal with it, we have always had to.
My comparison was between attendance at Tigers and another sport you find a joke.
The problem is that it is not a trade off between school and open air events, it's school or not. Or in the case of the situation my middle brother is in the process of managing, university or not - in the halls at the southern uni he works at, there is a 70% infection level and lockdown, and he goes in wearing a hazmat suit.
He knows the risks, and he finds it unbelievable that open air events - properly managed - aren't allowed.
Perhaps all of us at the frontline are deluded. Hey ho.
Finally - I had a lot of respect for your opinions but your final sentence says it all.

They quite possibly are deluded, being on full pay!

Well I've probably averaged 30 orienteering events a year over the last 35 years (the last this morning) and I've only seen an air ambulance once. That was near Braemar and so an unusually remote location. I've also never had to visit hospital after an orienteering event despite frequently falling over twigs and other ground based objects, but I have after playing rugby, cycling and using an assault course.

Also, while I'm not naturally inclined to defend teachers, given the timing of orienteering events (evenings, weekends and school holidays), there is little if any opportunity for teachers to take paid leave to participate. In fact the only 'sector' who get 'paid leave' to go orienteering that I'm aware of are the military ( I know this because over the years I benefited myself from loads of extra leave, foreign and subsidised travel to pursue a sport that was handily also classified as military training).

The real issue demonstrated by the lack of orienteering events at the moment is that people are not content to just apply the rules around what activities are acceptable but that they then make up their own additional rules grounded in a lack of understanding and an unwillingness to accept that activities in which they have no interest might actually have some merit.

[BFG]

OK you think working in an underfunded school with a whole year (9) and 11 teachers out, with support staff at risk as well is a joking matter? So underfunded we can't afford textbooks, decent computer and proper UPVC screening, let alone socially distance? Especially with some kids having parents who tell them COVID is a leftwing scam/paedophile plot etc, and refuse to wear masks etc, but we can't exclude them on those grounds? The only mental health problems are those generated at home or by the test-test-test system, to go with the normal 10% of kids with moderate to serious personality and anxiety issues. We deal with it, we have always had to.
My comparison was between attendance at Tigers and another sport you find a joke.
The problem is that it is not a trade off between school and open air events, it's school or not. Or in the case of the situation my middle brother is in the process of managing, university or not - in the halls at the southern uni he works at, there is a 70% infection level and lockdown, and he goes in wearing a hazmat suit.
He knows the risks, and he finds it unbelievable that open air events - properly managed - aren't allowed.
Perhaps all of us at the frontline are deluded. Hey ho.
Finally - I had a lot of respect for your opinions but your final sentence says it all.

They quite possibly are deluded, being on full pay!

Well I've probably averaged 30 orienteering events a year over the last 35 years (the last this morning) and I've only seen an air ambulance once. That was near Braemar and so an unusually remote location. I've also never had to visit hospital after an orienteering event despite frequently falling over twigs and other ground based objects, but I have after playing rugby, cycling and using an assault course.

Also, while I'm not naturally inclined to defend teachers, given the timing of orienteering events (evenings, weekends and school holidays), there is little if any opportunity for teachers to take paid leave to participate. In fact the only 'sector' who get 'paid leave' to go orienteering that I'm aware of are the military ( I know this because over the years I benefited myself from loads of extra leave, foreign and subsidised travel to pursue a sport that was handily also classified as military training).

The real issue demonstrated by the lack of orienteering events at the moment is that people are not content to just apply the rules around what activities are acceptable but that they then make up their own additional rules grounded in a lack of understanding and an unwillingness to accept that activities in which they have no interest might actually have some merit.

Sounds important.
Maybe the PM could announce a sizeable cash injection into the sport tomorrow.

[Tigerbeat]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... lough.html

[MurphysLaw]

[quote=Tigerbeat post_id=755112 time=1602450911 user_id=6138]
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... lough.html
[/quote]

I think this shows, if anyone was ever doubting, how precarious the Club's financial situation now is.
After today's announcement from the DCMS of a support package to theatres, galleries, etc., hoping that rugby and other sporting clubs might be next.

[Tiglon]

I'm not sure it shows that the situation is precarious, it just shows that those clubs want to save some money. Not every business that uses the furlough scheme is on the brink of going under.

Let's be honest, the only reason rugby might need external support is to pay inflated wages to many of the players.

Sorry, but why should my taxes go towards maintaining rugby players salaries when I only get the furlough amount when my industry is in trouble? I don't work my :censored: off every day to support wealthy sports stars. I didn't take a 50% pay cut through lockdown just so that elite sports people can get away with only taking a 25% cut.

The rest of us could only get £30k per year on furlough, and many of us had to take hefty pay cuts while still working, but the government should give rugby clubs cash to make sure they can keep paying George Ford etc £200k+ per year? NO.

[Tigerbeat]

There are limits on what is paid out to £2100 per month.

[MurphysLaw]

[quote=Tiglon post_id=755149 time=1602503795 user_id=9329]
I'm not sure it shows that the situation is precarious, it just shows that those clubs want to save some money. Not every business that uses the furlough scheme is on the brink of going under.

Let's be honest, the only reason rugby might need external support is to pay inflated wages to many of the players.

Sorry, but why should my taxes go towards maintaining rugby players salaries when I only get the furlough amount when my industry is in trouble? I don't work my off every day to support wealthy sports stars. I didn't take a 50% pay cut through lockdown just so that elite sports people can get away with only taking a 25% cut.

The rest of us could only get £30k per year on furlough, and many of us had to take hefty pay cuts while still working, but the government should give rugby clubs cash to make sure they can keep paying George Ford etc £200k+ per year? NO.
[/quote]

That is NOT what is happening.
There is a limit on the amount of furlough payment. The higher paid players are likely to be the internationals, who have not been furloughed. That leaves the squad players, development players and the younger groups, so I doubt they can be regarded by most as 'wealthy sports stars'.

As to your claim that 'the only reason rugby might need external support is to pay inflated wages' . So, nothing to do then with being deprived of earning income from match days and from conferencing etc.?

[Tigerbeat]

Tigers need to have support staff to keep the club going. Shop staff, ticket office, groundsman, security still need to be paid and expect the players on the lower wages will have been put on furlough to absorb some of the outgoings for the club.
The players have contracts and as we have seen already this is a very difficult area to make big reductions since the game is still likely to continue but behind closed doors for some time.

[Tiglon]

My problem is not rugby clubs using furlough, they are welcome to. What I object to is the idea of the government giving rugby clubs more financial support on top of this, which is what some seem to be asking for.

Apologies, I did not articulate this very well in my previous post.

As to your claim that 'the only reason rugby might need external support is to pay inflated wages' . So, nothing to do then with being deprived of earning income from match days and from conferencing etc.?

And what do they need that income for? In large part, to pay players. While clubs continue to pay some players £100k's I would object to them being given further financial support that isn't given to other industries who are struggling just as much.

There are people out there in hospitality who will be getting 67% of minimum wage when their employers are forced to shut. Why therefore, should we give money to rugby clubs so that they can maintain much higher salaries?

I have no problem with rugby players earning what they do, but if the clubs can no longer afford to pay them that much, why is it up to tax payers to give them more of a subsidy than everyone else gets?

During lockdown my business couldn't afford my full salary, so I didn't get my full salary. It's the same situation now for rugby. I didn't ask the government to subsidise my higher than average salary, and I don't think it's right for rugby to ask for that now.

Yes, rugby players have contracts (we all do), but why is it taxpayers who should have to pay for these contracts?

In summary, furlough for rugby clubs? Sure, it's there to help everyone who needs it. Extra financial support so that players don't have to reduce their earnings as much as everyone else? No, thank you - there are plenty of people who need that support more right now.

[Tiglon]

So, nothing to do then with being deprived of earning income from match days and from conferencing etc

Sorry to double post, but this really annoys me. Of all the people affected by the lack of conferencing and other events, rugby players would be right at the bottom on the list of people needing support.

When there are thousands of people out of work completely because conferencing has been stopped, why should rugby players get their salaries topped up further by the government?

When there are thousands of people struggling to pay their bills having had their entire livelihoods and careers taken away in an instant, why should rugby players be the ones getting a hand out?

[h's dad]

Nearly 40% of transmission is driven by schools

That's very much at odds with what I've seen from sage, with the top two areas being hospitality (bars and restaurants) and shopping environments. Schools are a long way down the list. Although, in my opinion and experience, the place to really avoid is hospital.

“The evidence suggests that transmission in schools is very limited, even in secondary schools,” adding that “it is likely that much of the transmission among groups of young people may be outside school settings, as we really have limited evidence of transmission within schools” Prof Russell Viner who attends Sage meetings

[BFG]

I'm not sure it shows that the situation is precarious, it just shows that those clubs want to save some money. Not every business that uses the furlough scheme is on the brink of going under.

Let's be honest, the only reason rugby might need external support is to pay inflated wages to many of the players.

Sorry, but why should my taxes go towards maintaining rugby players salaries when I only get the furlough amount when my industry is in trouble? I don't work my off every day to support wealthy sports stars. I didn't take a 50% pay cut through lockdown just so that elite sports people can get away with only taking a 25% cut.

The rest of us could only get £30k per year on furlough, and many of us had to take hefty pay cuts while still working, but the government should give rugby clubs cash to make sure they can keep paying George Ford etc £200k+ per year? NO.

I agree.
Clubs were making big losses before Covid.
Possibly one area I'd direct some blame Cohen's way is for having a hand in pushing for the cap to be inflated to a financially unsustainable level.
England players will still get over 17k per match after a cut.

[Scott1]

Am I right in saying that any furloughed players can’t train with the club? So if they are furloughed until the 31 October that would give us 19 days training before the season starts,is that wise with the state we are already in playing wise,or were the players having time off anyway?