Positives going forward

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TigerFeetSteve
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Re: Positives going forward

Post by TigerFeetSteve » Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:02 am

Crofty wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 8:27 am
To the last two commenters, genuine question, had the relegation battle been live, given the constraints of the compressed schedule, how do you think our selections would have differed?
Well instead of the 1st XV being targeted and prepared for the Castre and Toulon games they would have been 2nd XV teams. Survival would have been prioritized
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Crofty
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Re: Positives going forward

Post by Crofty » Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:41 am

TigerFeetSteve wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:02 am
Crofty wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 8:27 am
To the last two commenters, genuine question, had the relegation battle been live, given the constraints of the compressed schedule, how do you think our selections would have differed?
Well instead of the 1st XV being targeted and prepared for the Castre and Toulon games they would have been 2nd XV teams. Survival would have been prioritized
The fixtures either side of those were the win against Saints and the absolute demolition of us at Ashton Gate. I'm not convinced that having the firsts, who did not beat a depleted Harlequins, would have changed that much.
No, not that one!

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Re: Positives going forward

Post by TigerFeetSteve » Fri Oct 09, 2020 10:08 am

Crofty wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:41 am
TigerFeetSteve wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:02 am
Crofty wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 8:27 am
To the last two commenters, genuine question, had the relegation battle been live, given the constraints of the compressed schedule, how do you think our selections would have differed?
Well instead of the 1st XV being targeted and prepared for the Castre and Toulon games they would have been 2nd XV teams. Survival would have been prioritized
The fixtures either side of those were the win against Saints and the absolute demolition of us at Ashton Gate. I'm not convinced that having the firsts, who did not beat a depleted Harlequins, would have changed that much.
True but it's not just that, it's also about the fact that they'd have given less youngsters a game had more of the senior players on the pitch for longer in the other games.

Also having something riding on games makes a difference.

I think if we'd needed to stay up for example we'd have back to backed a fair number of our first team for the Glaws game.

A few games we went for wins late on and lost losing bonuses, think we'd have been mores switched on.

All in all the focus of the restart would have been completely different...

I'll probably also say though. We probably wouldn't have been able to recruit some of the players we did, doubt Van Wyk say would have come across the world for one game then possible relegation...

So many variables would have been different. Other teams we're chasing would be under pressure.
Used to run around with an 11, 14 or 15 on my back.

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Re: Positives going forward

Post by Noggs » Fri Oct 09, 2020 10:26 am

MCC1964 wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:33 pm
FrontRowUnionMember wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:48 pm
...were it not for Sarries salary cap indiscretions, we’d be facing up to a stint in the championship.
No, no, no. no, no. We COULD have faced a stint in the Championship. That's the most you can say. There is no way that even this club would have pursued the playing policy that we did should Sarries have not already been relegated and relegation was a genuine issue. Now, I'm not saying that we wouldn't have been relegated, but you cannot say we would have. Might have at most.

Rant over......

Don't get me going on when people say 'had we had those three disallowed tries allowed we would have won the game'....

I'll get my me coat. :smt003
Agreed.

Clearly the new coaching team based their approach to completion of the season on getting the maximum possible benefit going forward. In this the only meaningful competition was Europe so they had the difficult task of looking at all aspects of performance of new and existing players, both individually and in combination, in the hope of being able to select the best available team to contest the European game. All this had to be done with the backdrop of up to 3 games in an eight day period and rules on how frequent player could play and limits on playing time. All in all, not easy.

As stated whilst we still ended up out of Europe and 11th in the Table there were many positives to take away. The journey will be a long one to get us back to where we all believe we belong but at least there are clear signs that the journey has begun which we haven't been able to say with any confidence for some time.
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Re: Positives going forward

Post by TigerS2 » Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:49 pm

This will be our last season in the Premiership if the kicking the ball away doesn’t stop. Please Tigers, save yourselves, be fearless and keep hold of the ball. Imagine that your life and your colleagues lives depend on it, because the life of this club does.

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Re: Positives going forward

Post by Cagey Tiger » Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:12 pm

TigerS2 wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:49 pm
This will be our last season in the Premiership if the kicking the ball away doesn’t stop. Please Tigers, save yourselves, be fearless and keep hold of the ball. Imagine that your life and your colleagues lives depend on it, because the life of this club does.
I get a bit fed up with this singling out of kicking the ball away as a bad thing in and of itself. If used in combination with a good kick chase, it can be very effective, just go back a few years to the start of Saracens under Venter and McCall. It's still part of their standard system. It's a bit like saying that every lost line-out is the fault if the hooker. The line-out and the kick chase are reliant on a number of players doing their bit. Just blaming one part of the tactic all the time is :smt018

Yes, just kicking it straight to someone like Johnny May or Semi Radradra with no chase is asking for trouble, but so is chucking it about in your own 22 a lot of the time.

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Re: Positives going forward

Post by sapajo » Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:21 pm

Cagey Tiger wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:12 pm
TigerS2 wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:49 pm
This will be our last season in the Premiership if the kicking the ball away doesn’t stop. Please Tigers, save yourselves, be fearless and keep hold of the ball. Imagine that your life and your colleagues lives depend on it, because the life of this club does.
I get a bit fed up with this singling out of kicking the ball away as a bad thing in and of itself. If used in combination with a good kick chase, it can be very effective, just go back a few years to the start of Saracens under Venter and McCall. It's still part of their standard system. It's a bit like saying that every lost line-out is the fault if the hooker. The line-out and the kick chase are reliant on a number of players doing their bit. Just blaming one part of the tactic all the time is :smt018

Yes, just kicking it straight to someone like Johnny May or Semi Radradra with no chase is asking for trouble, but so is chucking it about in your own 22 a lot of the time.
Well Saracens are excellent in executing their kicking game. The question remains why we after 2 seasons of Murphy first introducing it we are demonstrably not ?
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Re: Positives going forward

Post by Cagey Tiger » Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:32 pm

sapajo wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:21 pm
Cagey Tiger wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:12 pm
TigerS2 wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:49 pm
This will be our last season in the Premiership if the kicking the ball away doesn’t stop. Please Tigers, save yourselves, be fearless and keep hold of the ball. Imagine that your life and your colleagues lives depend on it, because the life of this club does.
I get a bit fed up with this singling out of kicking the ball away as a bad thing in and of itself. If used in combination with a good kick chase, it can be very effective, just go back a few years to the start of Saracens under Venter and McCall. It's still part of their standard system. It's a bit like saying that every lost line-out is the fault if the hooker. The line-out and the kick chase are reliant on a number of players doing their bit. Just blaming one part of the tactic all the time is :smt018

Yes, just kicking it straight to someone like Johnny May or Semi Radradra with no chase is asking for trouble, but so is chucking it about in your own 22 a lot of the time.
Well Saracens are excellent in executing their kicking game. The question remains why we after 2 seasons of Murphy first introducing it we are demonstrably not ?
Big turnover in the players involved in the chasing? Player fitness and commitment? And just for you, being coached by someone dropped unprepared into the role, who has admitted himself that being head coach wasn't his forte?

I'm no rugby expert so I'm sure there are other reasons as well.

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Re: Positives going forward

Post by spaldingtig » Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:50 am

I am seriously worried about next year. We have a defensive system that leaks trys for fun. As soon as any club raise their level of intensity against us they score. We have in theory a really potent back line seemingly not allowed to use their skills-just hoof the ball away and hope. We got hammered at the start of Borthwick’s reign and well beaten at the end.
In my humble opinion, l can’t see any change happening during the short turnaround and will be relegated.

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Re: Positives going forward

Post by Tigerbeat » Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:45 am

spaldingtig wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:50 am
I am seriously worried about next year. We have a defensive system that leaks trys for fun. As soon as any club raise their level of intensity against us they score. We have in theory a really potent back line seemingly not allowed to use their skills-just hoof the ball away and hope. We got hammered at the start of Borthwick’s reign and well beaten at the end.
In my humble opinion, l can’t see any change happening during the short turnaround and will be relegated.
Borthwick used the games to see players in the spotlight and understand their capabilities and how they react on the big stage. The team have been taken down to the basics and the rebuilding has started. Fitness, defence, lineouts have improved. Dont read too much into what has just happened. I am confident that the team are heading in the right direction and that gives me cause for optimism.
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Re: Positives going forward

Post by Noggs » Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:11 pm

spaldingtig wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:50 am
I am seriously worried about next year. We have a defensive system that leaks trys for fun. As soon as any club raise their level of intensity against us they score. We have in theory a really potent back line seemingly not allowed to use their skills-just hoof the ball away and hope. We got hammered at the start of Borthwick’s reign and well beaten at the end.
In my humble opinion, l can’t see any change happening during the short turnaround and will be relegated.
It will get better. Please, just give it a bit of time :smt023
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Re: Positives going forward

Post by Robespierre » Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:11 pm

There will undoubtedly be a smaller nucleus of players considered for the 1st team. The one positive that I am putting forward is that the younger players whose talent has been recognized by Borthwick will be an important part of that 1st team squad and those that haven’t yet made the cut will hopefully have game time elsewhere, if Nottingham and Loughborough Students are allowed to play. There are positives so it isn’t all doom and gloom, but as some have rightly commented, it ain’t going to happen overnight, but over the next couple of seasons.
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Re: Positives going forward

Post by spaldingtig » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:39 pm

I am trying to stay positive -but why on earth are we having to strip everything back to the basics? These are international players we are talking about, not beginners. All l have seen are we take to the field, show a level of intensity that lasts for about 15 minutes, come away with a couple of penalties, the opposition raise their game score 4 tries before halftime. We don’t react until later in the second half when it’s too late, and when the opposition have made wholesale changes to their team!
All in my opinion of course.

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Re: Positives going forward

Post by Cagey Tiger » Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:37 am

spaldingtig wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:39 pm
I am trying to stay positive -but why on earth are we having to strip everything back to the basics? These are international players we are talking about, not beginners.
Because rugby is very much a TEAM game and a lot of the basics are the interactions between players - line-out, scrum, ruck, maul, defence, kick chase, support lines etc. As there has been a huge turnover in players, even in the last few months, everyone needs to get to know the (new) basic systems of the NEW COACHES and the strengths and weaknesses of their team mates. As a simple example, basically you could kick chase longer for May than you can for Nadolo.

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Re: Positives going forward

Post by Not a jock » Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:24 am

I don't believe in this guff about meaningless games being used to introduce the new players to each other and for the head coach to assess their abilities etc. They're not an amateur club's third XV who just pitch up on match day - what are they doing (or not doing) in training between games?!

Many posters have mentioned the kicking game and some have pointed to the lack of an effective kick chase at times - could this be due to a lack of communication and understanding of the tactics? At Salarysins, for example, presumably the chasers known when to chase and when to be ready to ruck/maul/offload?

PS have just heard on Radio 2's traffic news that it's slow going at Welford Road, Leicester. At least I think it was the traffic news.

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