Positives going forward

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h's dad
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Re: Positives going forward

Post by h's dad » Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:40 am

Crofty wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:41 am
The fixtures either side of those were the win against Saints and the absolute demolition of us at Ashton Gate. I'm not convinced that having the firsts, who did not beat a depleted Harlequins, would have changed that much.
Are you saying that it would make no difference if match day players were picked at random? Or that that is what seems to be happening and perhaps we should try something different?
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Re: Positives going forward

Post by h's dad » Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:04 pm

Cagey Tiger wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:32 pm
sapajo wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:21 pm
Cagey Tiger wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:12 pm

I get a bit fed up with this singling out of kicking the ball away as a bad thing in and of itself. If used in combination with a good kick chase, it can be very effective, just go back a few years to the start of Saracens under Venter and McCall. It's still part of their standard system. It's a bit like saying that every lost line-out is the fault if the hooker. The line-out and the kick chase are reliant on a number of players doing their bit. Just blaming one part of the tactic all the time is :smt018

Yes, just kicking it straight to someone like Johnny May or Semi Radradra with no chase is asking for trouble, but so is chucking it about in your own 22 a lot of the time.
Well Saracens are excellent in executing their kicking game. The question remains why we after 2 seasons of Murphy first introducing it we are demonstrably not ?
Big turnover in the players involved in the chasing? Player fitness and commitment? And just for you, being coached by someone dropped unprepared into the role, who has admitted himself that being head coach wasn't his forte?

I'm no rugby expert so I'm sure there are other reasons as well.
The object of the game is to get over the white line with the opposition posts on with the funny shaped ball. Possession plus position equal points and are equally important.

When you kick the ball you do it in the hope of either securing immediate possession or winning it back, either by your own efforts or forcing the opposition to make a mistake before they get back to from where you kicked the ball.

It might not be the most attractive rugby but rugby isn't a beauty contest. It's done because it's simple and because it works and is statistically effective.

If Tigers can't manage to do this in the Premiership they don't deserve to be there.
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Re: Positives going forward

Post by sapajo » Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:41 pm

If Tigers can't manage to do this, the coaches should decide upon a game plan that we can actually manage and implement it in order to stay in the premiership.
Without hope we are nothing, keep the faith, a Tiger for eternity

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Re: Positives going forward

Post by Scott1 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:49 pm

Not a jock wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:24 am
I don't believe in this guff about meaningless games being used to introduce the new players to each other and for the head coach to assess their abilities etc. They're not an amateur club's third XV who just pitch up on match day - what are they doing (or not doing) in training between games?!

Many posters have mentioned the kicking game and some have pointed to the lack of an effective kick chase at times - could this be due to a lack of communication and understanding of the tactics? At Salarysins, for example, presumably the chasers known when to chase and when to be ready to ruck/maul/offload?

PS have just heard on Radio 2's traffic news that it's slow going at Welford Road, Leicester. At least I think it was the traffic news.
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Re: Positives going forward

Post by johnthegriff » Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:58 pm

Training cannot possibly replicate what happens in a match in normal circumstances but in a situation where you have a new coach, new players and many young hopefuls coupled with two games i.e two teams per week and difficulties at the training ground due to Covid regulations I think it counts as more than guff. The fact that there was no possibility of relegation presented a unique opportunity for Steve Borthwick to see his squad in match situations, there will be no pre season games for 20/21 so I do understand why they adopted the policy they did. I did question some of the teams selected but I do understand why, of course the new season will demonstrate early on whether or not the plan worked.

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Re: Positives going forward

Post by jgriffin » Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:25 am

johnthegriff wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:58 pm
Training cannot possibly replicate what happens in a match in normal circumstances but in a situation where you have a new coach, new players and many young hopefuls coupled with two games i.e two teams per week and difficulties at the training ground due to Covid regulations I think it counts as more than guff. The fact that there was no possibility of relegation presented a unique opportunity for Steve Borthwick to see his squad in match situations, there will be no pre season games for 20/21 so I do understand why they adopted the policy they did. I did question some of the teams selected but I do understand why, of course the new season will demonstrate early on whether or not the plan worked.
I genuinely can't see why others can't see what SB was doing. Yes, I agree there were two selections I would question BUT the positives IMO far outweigh the negatives (in the positive column I include both the plusses like Henry, Williams, the young forwards, and also the negatives - Olowefela, Worth, possibly Hardwick).
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Re: Positives going forward

Post by Tiglon » Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:56 pm

It's not the rotation and the hammerings our second team got that worries me - it's our first team (which is a stronger team than will be available for most of next season) being well beaten by a Quins team that was somewhere between their firsts and seconds.

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Re: Positives going forward

Post by mol2 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:14 pm

I guess the concern isn't the players we have seen - certainly seem to be promising developments.

However the way our attacking game plan hasn't evolved from the aimless kicking that has blighted us for a long time. Yes we are cleaarly better at defending after we have kicked the ball away but the problem is we don't seem to have evolved an attacking game to use the ball we have. One or two nice interactions between FB & wing aside.

I think we need an attack coach - neither the forwards nor the backs are making inroads in the way we need to at this level. This seems to be the weakness in our coaching set up. Good scrum and forwards coaching and defense coach but a backs/attack coach seems to be lacking.

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Re: Positives going forward

Post by Cagey Tiger » Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:06 pm

Scott1 wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:49 pm
Not a jock wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:24 am
I don't believe in this guff about meaningless games being used to introduce the new players to each other and for the head coach to assess their abilities etc. They're not an amateur club's third XV who just pitch up on match day - what are they doing (or not doing) in training between games?!

Many posters have mentioned the kicking game and some have pointed to the lack of an effective kick chase at times - could this be due to a lack of communication and understanding of the tactics? At Salarysins, for example, presumably the chasers known when to chase and when to be ready to ruck/maul/offload?

PS have just heard on Radio 2's traffic news that it's slow going at Welford Road, Leicester. At least I think it was the traffic news.
First paragraph is bang on,it’s a pooor excuse for me!
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

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Re: Positives going forward

Post by Tiglon » Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:30 pm

mol2 wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:14 pm
I guess the concern isn't the players we have seen - certainly seem to be promising developments.

However the way our attacking game plan hasn't evolved from the aimless kicking that has blighted us for a long time. Yes we are cleaarly better at defending after we have kicked the ball away but the problem is we don't seem to have evolved an attacking game to use the ball we have. One or two nice interactions between FB & wing aside.

I think we need an attack coach - neither the forwards nor the backs are making inroads in the way we need to at this level. This seems to be the weakness in our coaching set up. Good scrum and forwards coaching and defense coach but a backs/attack coach seems to be lacking.
One is probably enough...

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Personally I think defence is our biggest problem!

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Re: Positives going forward

Post by Crofty » Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:00 pm

h's dad wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:40 am
Crofty wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:41 am
The fixtures either side of those were the win against Saints and the absolute demolition of us at Ashton Gate. I'm not convinced that having the firsts, who did not beat a depleted Harlequins, would have changed that much.
Are you saying that it would make no difference if match day players were picked at random? Or that that is what seems to be happening and perhaps we should try something different?
What I'm saying is that if we we had shifted our targeting of games from the Euro knockouts the only games that would have had a substantial change in their line ups would have been a game we already won (yay) and a game where a top 4 side utterly demolished us. Then I added in that given the players that would have been the reinforcements did not beat a Harlequins (6th) team missing a significant portion of its better players. From that I surmise that the loss at Ashton Gate would still have been a loss.
No, not that one!

Remember, whatever you do to the smallest of the backs you do to his prop, and you can't avoid the rucks and mauls forever...

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Re: Positives going forward

Post by Crofty » Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:09 pm

TigerFeetSteve wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 10:08 am
Crofty wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:41 am
TigerFeetSteve wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:02 am


Well instead of the 1st XV being targeted and prepared for the Castre and Toulon games they would have been 2nd XV teams. Survival would have been prioritized
The fixtures either side of those were the win against Saints and the absolute demolition of us at Ashton Gate. I'm not convinced that having the firsts, who did not beat a depleted Harlequins, would have changed that much.
True but it's not just that, it's also about the fact that they'd have given less youngsters a game had more of the senior players on the pitch for longer in the other games.

Also having something riding on games makes a difference.

I think if we'd needed to stay up for example we'd have back to backed a fair number of our first team for the Glaws game.

A few games we went for wins late on and lost losing bonuses, think we'd have been mores switched on.

All in all the focus of the restart would have been completely different...

I'll probably also say though. We probably wouldn't have been able to recruit some of the players we did, doubt Van Wyk say would have come across the world for one game then possible relegation...

So many variables would have been different. Other teams we're chasing would be under pressure.
More minutes from the firsts who couldn't beat Harlequins seconds, I don't see it making a difference of +6 league points to the season. Also, these are professional players who have a new coaching set up to impress, if those two are not reasons enough for them to switch themselves on then I really do despair.

On paper we have a fantastic set of players and a top notch coaching set up, we should be better than we are and, hopefully next season, we will be, but that is based on nothing substantial because there is zero evidence that things are actually, materially getting better right now.
No, not that one!

Remember, whatever you do to the smallest of the backs you do to his prop, and you can't avoid the rucks and mauls forever...

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Re: Positives going forward

Post by Cagey Tiger » Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:59 am

Crofty wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:09 pm
On paper we have a fantastic set of players and a top notch coaching set up, we should be better than we are and, hopefully next season, we will be, but that is based on nothing substantial because there is zero evidence that things are actually, materially getting better right now.
My bold.

If you had said 'limited' or something similar instead of zero, I would agree with you, but there has been some improvement in a number of areas (just re-read this thread). However, it has not been sufficient to make a difference to whether we win or lose, just (generally) the margin of defeat has been narrower.

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Re: Positives going forward

Post by Crofty » Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:12 am

Cagey Tiger wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:59 am
Crofty wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:09 pm
On paper we have a fantastic set of players and a top notch coaching set up, we should be better than we are and, hopefully next season, we will be, but that is based on nothing substantial because there is zero evidence that things are actually, materially getting better right now.
My bold.

If you had said 'limited' or something similar instead of zero, I would agree with you, but there has been some improvement in a number of areas (just re-read this thread). However, it has not been sufficient to make a difference to whether we win or lose, just (generally) the margin of defeat has been narrower.
Lose by 8 or lose by 28 makes no material difference to the league points unless you score 4 tries, which we haven't done in a long time now.
No, not that one!

Remember, whatever you do to the smallest of the backs you do to his prop, and you can't avoid the rucks and mauls forever...

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Re: Positives going forward

Post by Cagey Tiger » Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:43 am

Crofty wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:12 am
Cagey Tiger wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:59 am
Crofty wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:09 pm
On paper we have a fantastic set of players and a top notch coaching set up, we should be better than we are and, hopefully next season, we will be, but that is based on nothing substantial because there is zero evidence that things are actually, materially getting better right now.
My bold.

If you had said 'limited' or something similar instead of zero, I would agree with you, but there has been some improvement in a number of areas (just re-read this thread). However, it has not been sufficient to make a difference to whether we win or lose, just (generally) the margin of defeat has been narrower.
Lose by 8 or lose by 28 makes no material difference to the league points unless you score 4 tries, which we haven't done in a long time now.
But going from losing by 28 to losing by 8 would seem to indicate an improvement. And if the improvement continues, and we lose by 7 or less, that would make a material difference to league points (something that you excluded by your choice of 8, not deliberately, I'm sure :smt002) or, heaven forbid, we might start winning some that previously we would have lost. We were only below LI by 5 (bonus) points. Yes, that's only one place, but we aren't going to go from relegation contenders to play-off contenders in a week.

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