What a mess

[ourla]

Everyone is missing the point.

It's a mess for the English Premiership and therefore Leicester Tigers. It's also a mess for the England national side.

It's not about feeling sorry for, or having sympathy for, Saracens.

It's about being pee'd of at a situation we've allowed to happen that will hurt us all.

It is what it is ................

Yeah but what is it? Is the English Premiership a serious commercial enterprise? Or some semi-pro mash up?

[ourla]

Everyone is missing the point.

It's a mess for the English Premiership and therefore Leicester Tigers. It's also a mess for the England national side.

It's not about feeling sorry for, or having sympathy for, Saracens.

It's about being pee'd of at a situation we've allowed to happen that will hurt us all.

It is what it is ................

Coronavirus in a sense has revealed a lot of truths, including that modern pro rugby is unsustainable, both in its human cost and financial one.

I disagree. The problem is realising that you are in all this together. And knowing your place in the world.

[ourla]

Were it just a normal relegation and it were us for the drop you can bet there would be no hand wringing at the situation like there is here. Despite years of ongoing cheating, despite there being no contrition at all from the club, its players, coaches, fans or owners, despite no sign that they don't intend to do it all again, somehow Sarries are still the darlings of the Rugby media. It's sick. Something is rotten in the state of Rugby Journalism.

Part of the problem is actually they've done a lot right.

[ourla]

Ok, so, if everyone else is missing the point, why should they be in the Prem?

Because there pro rugby clubs are not a dime a dozen and rugby isn't football. If the English Prem is going to be a great league to follow and watch it needs well run, solid clubs with a decent set up. And it needs good administration. Poor administration has led to the result. Sarries going to the Championship for a season wasn't a killer blow but if the Championship isn't running then what - to have a club like Sarries in limbo is good for no one.

[BFG]

I'm afraid ourla is right it is a mess.
With players like Itoje excluded then the sport is devaluing itself.
That's one of the points that will be raised if a handout is needed.
The counter argument is that to back out of relegating Sarries now would affect support elsewhere but that won't matter as it's not a moral argument but purely a question of finances.

[tigerburnie]

Maro is only excluded because he's chosen to stay where he is, he could have moved, but chose to stay with proven cheats, all are tarnished with the same brush. The game has always been above one player or even one team, I agree that the titles should have been stripped. When Glasgow Rangers did a similar thing, they had to go to the bottom of the leagues and start again, no one in Scottish soccer would do what Rangers did, the same example should have been made in Rugby, because the mealy mouthed response was applied, you can bet some one will try looking for another loop hole.

[TigerBoy1880]

Ok, so, if everyone else is missing the point, why should they be in the Prem?

Because there pro rugby clubs are not a dime a dozen and rugby isn't football. If the English Prem is going to be a great league to follow and watch it needs well run, solid clubs with a decent set up. And it needs good administration. Poor administration has led to the result. Sarries going to the Championship for a season wasn't a killer blow but if the Championship isn't running then what - to have a club like Sarries in limbo is good for no one.

If they are in limbo then they have no one to blame but themselves. I would rather have a"poorer" league without cheats in than a "better" league but with cheats in it.

To be honest, I reckon the league will be better without Saracens.

[TigerFeetSteve]

I wonder if the RFU had planned this 20/21 season with, Sarries in the Championship, as a kind of experiment like Japan did the year building to world cup with large numbers of their stars sitting out of the Sunwolves first team and having a gentle season. So behind the scenes I think the RFU said to the likes of Farrell et al, stay at Saracens it'll be ok, they didn't forsee any issues with saying to a club with a salary bill too high keep a load of that expense and now with Covid it's making that policy daft. If they'd kept the England players need to be in the Premiership rule a lot more would have been loaned out and there's no issue

[Tiglon]

They broke the rules, they were punished. Seems fine to me.

Bit of a conundrum about what happens if the Championship doesn't go ahead though, particularly if it never comes back in a professional format. Do Sarries then have a year of not playing followed by a year of injuring amateur opponents to win promotion back to the Premiership? That's not good for anyone.

Maybe a year of exhibition matches (or the whole squad out on loan) before rejoining a 13 team Premiership by default would be more sensible.

If there are not enough professional clubs outside of the Premiership then really the only option is a 13 team ringfenced league, unless Ealing can persuade (or buy) their way in. But who's going to be in favour of having another West London team?

P.s. The league will be a lot better with a (rule abiding) Saracens in it.

[BFG]

Maro is only excluded because he's chosen to stay where he is, he could have moved, but chose to stay with proven cheats, all are tarnished with the same brush. The game has always been above one player or even one team, I agree that the titles should have been stripped. When Glasgow Rangers did a similar thing, they had to go to the bottom of the leagues and start again, no one in Scottish soccer would do what Rangers did, the same example should have been made in Rugby, because the mealy mouthed response was applied, you can bet some one will try looking for another loop hole.

That's all well and good but Rangers and Scottish football weren't asking for government bail outs.
The situation is now different with coronavirus.
If rugby can manage on it's own then that's fine, carry on.
If it can't manage on its own and asks for taxpayers money then it must be seen to do everything that it can to minimise the need.

[Dr H Flashman MBE]

I have a mate who is a Sarries fan and initially he was telling me it was a witch hunt and that they did nothing wrong. The fact is they cheated and to a point it was blatant. Getting Daley was just pure arrogance that said “so what” to the rest of the league.
As for the players, well they were either very naive and clueless to what and how they were getting paid or utterly complicit so after checking the sympathy well I have found it empty and not in danger of filling up.
If they go under the only people I would be concerned for are the ground staff and bar staff etc.
I hope that they languish in the championship and the the league gets ring fenced.
I feel for their fans, the honest ones who know they cheated and admit it, not the ostrich ones.
As for the media fawning over them it is distasteful at the very least. I don’t see them having a love in with Ben Johnstone, Marion Jones or Lance Armstrong who are cheats too on the same level as Sarries.
I would have their titles stripped and the 3 stars off their top.
No sympathy and don’t care if I never see another Fez at Welford road again.
Apologies for the rant.

[Old Hob]

I'm afraid ourla is right it is a mess.
With players like Itoje excluded then the sport is devaluing itself.
That's one of the points that will be raised if a handout is needed.
[size=150]The counter argument is that to back out of relegating Sarries now would affect support elsewhere but that won't matter as it's not a moral argument but purely a question of finances.[/size]

This is exactly Saracens position throughout when they were cheating season after season. Anyone pushing that argument has a serious deficiency with their moral compass.

[Dr H Flashman MBE]

I'm afraid ourla is right it is a mess.
With players like Itoje excluded then the sport is devaluing itself.
That's one of the points that will be raised if a handout is needed.
[size=150]The counter argument is that to back out of relegating Sarries now would affect support elsewhere but that won't matter as it's not a moral argument but purely a question of finances.[/size]

This is exactly Saracens position throughout when they were cheating season after season. Anyone pushing that argument has a serious deficiency with their moral compass.

[Wayne Richardson Fan Club]

Another side of this is a lot of fringe & young players at Premiership Clubs will barely play a game without having anywhere to go on loan.

If Sarries effectively stayed up by default or ring fencing I think it will be very uncomfortable for them when crowds get back, the other clubs should ban Wray from their Stadiums.

[BFG]

I'm afraid ourla is right it is a mess.
With players like Itoje excluded then the sport is devaluing itself.
That's one of the points that will be raised if a handout is needed.
[size=150]The counter argument is that to back out of relegating Sarries now would affect support elsewhere but that won't matter as it's not a moral argument but purely a question of finances.[/size]

This is exactly Saracens position throughout when they were cheating season after season. Anyone pushing that argument has a serious deficiency with their moral compass.

Then pro sport should not ask for taxpayers money to pay players 20k a game whilst nurses and soldiers get 20k a year.