Team vs Saints

[Bunchy]

I also think it was the first time we stuck to a gameplan for the 80 - or most of it at least without losing our heads - we could have capitulated at 13 men and again had some tough defending to do later in the match at 14 men

It was a step forward - with lots still to work on

[fentiger]

Hypothetically: what would the performance & result have been before lockdown?

[AngusMcCoatup]

Important to keep our heads screwed on for next week, it is good to get the Derby win though. Couldn't watch the game but saw the highlights, what was Lavanini's yellow card for? Also Leatigaga was being a bit silly but was well handled in the end by Barnes and Gengey (although I suspect the former, like Austin, was more worried about his car!).

Lavanini's yellow was pretty much a "team yellow", given we'd been penalised in the red zone several times. I think he was one of a couple that were offside. On reflection, Liebenburg and Steward were the standout players for me yesterday. Hanro put some decent carries in from the restarts. Makes such a difference in terms of exiting. Steward is proving to be solid at 15. Good under the high ball, brave and an elusive runner. I worry about out penalty count. Ok, if you're under pressure I get that penalties are often given away, but the amount of stupid penalties is alarming. Good win though, but still can't get used to no spectators.

Iam getting concerned at the number of yellow cards being given to Lavanini and Wells as these add up to a red disqualification ~ not sure but thinking it is three yellows = a red. Those three yellows stopped our momentum and going for an attacking 4 try bonus and more creditable reports that Tigers played well and beat Saints rather than Saints did not play well.. positive thoughts.

[westwinds31]

The Lavanini "thing" is frustrating, as whenever he's mentioned in the media or on TV, it's "the tough Argentinian lock who plays on the edge" or they mention his red card against England in the World Cup. It's not quite at the Hartley level, but it's not far off. The opposition also know that he reacts, so take every opportunity to dish out the verbals or give him a pat on the head etc. Down to him to laugh it off. But he's a marked man. Lavanini and Green operate pretty well together I think. I think Henderson will be there in a couple of years, brought on by Borthwick so we should be in a good state in terms of the line out/locks.

I was thinking about yesterday's game earlier on and there was a moment when Murimurivalu got the ball, used some deft footwork to beat 2 players but was tackled, went to ground but off-loaded and kept the ball alive. it didn't come to anything but I remember thinking "that is what we need to do". Don't die with the ball. Small thing but shows that things are slowly improving. We are getting behind teams now, just need that cutting edge to take opportunities when we do that.

[JP14]

Having watched the highlights, the Liebenberg yellow card is an annoying one, I'm pretty sure if a maul collapses legally then a player can kill the ball, even if it is available?

It shouldn't be that way but just because it shouldn't doesn't mean Barnes can ref it like that. Oh well, anyone can correct me if wrong and the yellow card did not have an affect on the result of the match.

[Chobbsy]

Having watched the highlights, the Liebenberg yellow card is an annoying one, I'm pretty sure if a maul collapses legally then a player can kill the ball, even if it is available?

It shouldn't be that way but just because it shouldn't doesn't mean Barnes can ref it like that. Oh well, anyone can correct me if wrong and the yellow card did not have an affect on the result of the match.

It was a strange game, a win, any win at the moment is a good win, several players played really well and the feel for me was much better.... but is it wrong that I am disappointed this morning?

[Chobbsy]

The Lavanini "thing" is frustrating, as whenever he's mentioned in the media or on TV, it's "the tough Argentinian lock who plays on the edge" or they mention his red card against England in the World Cup. It's not quite at the Hartley level, but it's not far off. The opposition also know that he reacts, so take every opportunity to dish out the verbals or give him a pat on the head etc. Down to him to laugh it off. But he's a marked man. Lavanini and Green operate pretty well together I think. I think Henderson will be there in a couple of years, brought on by Borthwick so we should be in a good state in terms of the line out/locks.

I was thinking about yesterday's game earlier on and there was a moment when Murimurivalu got the ball, used some deft footwork to beat 2 players but was tackled, went to ground but off-loaded and kept the ball alive. it didn't come to anything but I remember thinking "that is what we need to do". Don't die with the ball. Small thing but shows that things are slowly improving. We are getting behind teams now, just need that cutting edge to take opportunities when we do that.

I have to say I was really impressed with Murimurivalu looks like he will fit in nicely

[ourla]

I was thinking about yesterday's game earlier on and there was a moment when Murimurivalu got the ball, used some deft footwork to beat 2 players but was tackled, went to ground but off-loaded and kept the ball alive. it didn't come to anything but I remember thinking "that is what we need to do". Don't die with the ball.

Watching the highlights over recent weeks this is what the best teams are doing a lot. But to me it's understandable with all our back line changes that it's going to take a little time to get there. But for sure we need to.

[ourla]

It was a strange game, a win, any win at the moment is a good win, several players played really well and the feel for me was much better.... but is it wrong that I am disappointed this morning?

Depends what you were expecting and were disappointed with??

[ABClub]

Having watched the highlights, the Liebenberg yellow card is an annoying one, I'm pretty sure if a maul collapses legally then a player can kill the ball, even if it is available?

It shouldn't be that way but just because it shouldn't doesn't mean Barnes can ref it like that. Oh well, anyone can correct me if wrong and the yellow card did not have an affect on the result of the match.

If the ball gets to ground and is playable after the maul collapsing (legally) then the breakdown should be reffed as a ruck, hence it was the right decision from Barnes. The inconsistencies in that area drive me completely insane though. Usually Liebenberg would get away with that with how it's often reffed.

The reffing of mauls is a complete quagmire though. Often attacking sides will collapse their own mauls knowing that if the ball is safe at the back and the ref doesn't call anything they can still play the ball, but if the ref thinks it's been dragged down by the defending team they will get a penalty advantage. Once the ball is on the ground and presentable/playable it should be reffed as a ruck but defending forwards will frequently dive over the top/from the side to kill the ball knowing it usually won't be pinged.

The choke tackle is then another disaster all together. If the ensuing maul from a choke tackle is moving forward and the defensive side drag it down intentionally it should be a penalty, it pretty much always results in a scrum to the defending team though as the refs presume the ball carrier is trying to get to ground, hence the attacking team are collapsing the maul and if the ball is unplayable then that should be a scrum to the defensive side. That's not always the case though.

A centre such as Danny Hipkiss who was excellent at staying on his feet in contact to setup attacking mauls just wouldn't be able to use that skill in the same way with how the choke tackle is now reffed.

[Tiglon]

Not really, its a reasonably well established stat that a team serving a yellow card will, on average, have 7 points scored against them.

I don't think stats apply to thing that never happened.

You're right though, if we were playing Exeter we would have probably lost the match. But we weren't playing Exeter. No one is saying we are good enough to beat Exeter or would have beaten Exeter.

I think what you're saying is that the only reason that we won was that we were better than the other team and if they had been better than us then we might have lost. Isn't that stating the obvious a bit?

The point im making is not that we can't beat Exeter, that is, as you point out, utterly banal. The point I'm making is that we can't beat a bang average team, that means we're bottom half of the table and while we're rebuilding and that does take time I'm trying to temper expectations for next season because the way some are treating yesterday's win I fear the level of disappointment that will hit them next season will translate into calling for SB's head...

Fair enough, I agree we shouldn't get carried away on the back of that one match, but it is becoming increasingly possible to imagine a brighter future.

Whether we can beat a bang average team - I suppose that would be Gloucester or Quins in the Premiership - is yet to be seen, with the first team playing. The Quins game, if both teams are at full-ish strength, could be a good gauge of progress. You could say Saints, sitting 7th in the league, are very much average but I can see the argument that they have been below that since restart.

[johnthegriff]

Currently with so many clubs selecting teams that would not be fielded in normal circumstances it is difficult to judge exactly where we are, yesterday both teams were pretty near the strongest available to each club. Undoubtedly if fit we would have George Ford at 10, if available we would probably pick Brink, Van Wycke, Weisze,Moroni and possibly Reffell, how we get them all in the team and who we leave out is not my problem but that they are at some point to be included fuels my optimism.
The match against Saints was scrappy but the fact is we won and frankly I preferred that performance to the one at Franklyns Gardens, we did not score the tries we would have liked, we conceded more tries than we would have liked, our discipline was not as we would want but we won, things are coming together. We have competition for places, our pack is looking stronger and some young players are developing to the point where they are serious contenders for a place in the team whilst recent signings also look pretty good. This season is what it is and currently we are still in a European competition but I am looking forward to next season, our climb up the table and fans complaining that we have only finished fourth. Mind you if we win the Premiership they will probably still be saying we will need to be better to beat promoted Saracens.

[TigerFeetSteve]

Hypothetically: what would the performance & result have been before lockdown?

Well a team in 4th vs team in 11th, us without
Henry
Scott
Porter
Potter
Liebenberg

The likes of Steward wouldn't have had a game time the circumstances have given our team may have been.

Assume Ford picked up a knock in the build up.

Veainu
Holmes
Eastmond
Tuilagi
May
Hardwick
Youngs
Genge
Youngs
Cole
Spencer
Lavannini
Taufua
Thompson
Kalamafoni

Basically we'd most likely have been smashed.

[Big Dai]

......... Mind you if we win the Premiership they will probably still be saying we will need to be better to beat promoted Saracens.

Be careful. Many a true word spoken in jest!



Their thirds didn't play badly yesterday.

[fentiger]

Hypothetically: what would the performance & result have been before lockdown?

Well a team in 4th vs team in 11th, us without
Henry
Scott
Porter
Potter
Liebenberg

The likes of Steward wouldn't have had a game time the circumstances have given our team may have been.

Assume Ford picked up a knock in the build up.

Veainu
Holmes
Eastmond
Tuilagi
May
Hardwick
Youngs
Genge
Youngs
Cole
Spencer
Lavannini
Taufua
Thompson
Kalamafoni

Basically we'd most likely have been smashed.

Yeah, I momentarily forgot it was before Stains began their slide!
It was also before we got a proper fitness coach, defence coach, attack coach and Head coach! May have been interesting to see if they could have improved with who was here then, or indeed, whether a large proportion of those players were not good enough/did not care enough about the shirt?