A new defence coach?

[westwinds31]

Has anyone considered that it might be the players who aren’t capable of implementing a defensive plan ? You can put the best defensive plan on the table, communicate it clearly and work tirelessly on the training pitch, but if one or more players on match day can’t make it work, then what can you do. Getting another defence coach in won’t necessarily help. It’s based on communication, which perhaps explains why we’re not on the same page yet, given a lot of the squad are still getting to know each other.

[strawclearer]

Are you saying that Borthwick would have turned down the opportunity to be a Head Coach if he couldn't have GM as his DOR? So, what, he would have just walked away from rugby until GM got a DOR role and offered him a job? Be sensible...

Of course I'm not saying that (and telling me to "be sensible" isn't the politest thing I've heard today). I'm simply saying that Borthwick would not have taken the Tigers HC job had GM not been the Tigers DoR.

My sources also confirmed the same

I'm fast coming to the view that speculating on here with others who try to responsibly share their sources is no longer the enjoyable past-time it used to be.

[Tiglon]

Agree with this and a couple of points to make:

I don't believe that Geordan felt 'up to' the Coaching job at any stage. He took on the role for the Club's benefit - not his. The Club owes him a huge debt of gratitude imho.

Borthwick's appointment was driven by Simon Cohen. Borthwick would not have taken the job had Geordan not been made DoR - which SC ensured would happen.

The triumvirate of Murphy, Borthwick and McGinity are key to future success.

Are you saying that Borthwick would have turned down the opportunity to be a Head Coach if he couldn't have GM as his DOR? So, what, he would have just walked away from rugby until GM got a DOR role and offered him a job? Be sensible...

Of course I'm not saying that (and telling me to "be sensible" isn't the politest thing I've heard today). I'm simply saying that Borthwick would not have taken the Tigers HC job had GM not been the Tigers DoR.

My apologies if I offended you, you're right, I could have phrased that more politely.

I'm sure that Borthwick has said some nice things about GM and is looking forward to working with him (and I'm not trying to have a go at GM, the jury is still out on him as a DOR and will be for at least 12 months IMO) but I'm sure there are plenty of other DOR's that Borthwick would have happily worked for at Tigers. For example, if GM had left and Steve Hansen had been named DOR, would Borthwick have said "sorry, I'm out"? I would be astonished if that was the case.

[Cagey Tiger]

Are you saying that Borthwick would have turned down the opportunity to be a Head Coach if he couldn't have GM as his DOR? So, what, he would have just walked away from rugby until GM got a DOR role and offered him a job? Be sensible...

Of course I'm not saying that (and telling me to "be sensible" isn't the politest thing I've heard today). I'm simply saying that Borthwick would not have taken the Tigers HC job had GM not been the Tigers DoR.

My apologies if I offended you, you're right, I could have phrased that more politely.

I'm sure that Borthwick has said some nice things about GM and is looking forward to working with him (and I'm not trying to have a go at GM, the jury is still out on him as a DOR and will be for at least 12 months IMO) but I'm sure there are plenty of other DOR's that Borthwick would have happily worked for at Tigers. For example, if GM had left and Steve Hansen had been named DOR, would Borthwick have said "sorry, I'm out"? I would be astonished if that was the case.

I wouldn't be. Tigers were a mess. Geordan knew the background to that mess and knew all the players, many from their earliest days at the club, having played with and/or coached them. No-one else has that depth of knowledge. Without access to that knowledge, SB would have had to learn it all piecemeal over a number of months, if not seasons, making the job much harder. This is not to say that SB would have blindly accepted everything that GM told him, just that having that source of info would make the job a lot easier, especially as it is SB's first Head Coach job.

[Tiglon]

Of course I'm not saying that (and telling me to "be sensible" isn't the politest thing I've heard today). I'm simply saying that Borthwick would not have taken the Tigers HC job had GM not been the Tigers DoR.

My apologies if I offended you, you're right, I could have phrased that more politely.

I'm sure that Borthwick has said some nice things about GM and is looking forward to working with him (and I'm not trying to have a go at GM, the jury is still out on him as a DOR and will be for at least 12 months IMO) but I'm sure there are plenty of other DOR's that Borthwick would have happily worked for at Tigers. For example, if GM had left and Steve Hansen had been named DOR, would Borthwick have said "sorry, I'm out"? I would be astonished if that was the case.

I wouldn't be. Tigers were a mess. Geordan knew the background to that mess and knew all the players, many from their earliest days at the club, having played with and/or coached them. No-one else has that depth of knowledge. Without access to that knowledge, SB would have had to learn it all piecemeal over a number of months, if not seasons, making the job much harder. This is not to say that SB would have blindly accepted everything that GM told him, just that having that source of info would make the job a lot easier, especially as it is SB's first Head Coach job.

I suppose that's why he turned down the England Forwards Coach job in 2015 - because Eddie Jones was new and didn't know the England players very well and SB probably told the RFU he would only join if Lancaster was his boss. Makes sense. Oh, wait...

Some might point out that for years we've had people in charge who know the senior players very well, and that it doesn't seem to have helped us much recently. Some might even go as far as to argue that if Head Coaches/DoR's etc knowing the senior players very well was the key to success, we would have won every single game for the last 10 years.

[Cagey Tiger]

My apologies if I offended you, you're right, I could have phrased that more politely.

I'm sure that Borthwick has said some nice things about GM and is looking forward to working with him (and I'm not trying to have a go at GM, the jury is still out on him as a DOR and will be for at least 12 months IMO) but I'm sure there are plenty of other DOR's that Borthwick would have happily worked for at Tigers. For example, if GM had left and Steve Hansen had been named DOR, would Borthwick have said "sorry, I'm out"? I would be astonished if that was the case.

I wouldn't be. Tigers were a mess. Geordan knew the background to that mess and knew all the players, many from their earliest days at the club, having played with and/or coached them. No-one else has that depth of knowledge. Without access to that knowledge, SB would have had to learn it all piecemeal over a number of months, if not seasons, making the job much harder. This is not to say that SB would have blindly accepted everything that GM told him, just that having that source of info would make the job a lot easier, especially as it is SB's first Head Coach job.

I suppose that's why he turned down the England Forwards Coach job in 2015 - because Eddie Jones was new and didn't know the England players very well and SB probably told the RFU he would only join if Lancaster was his boss. Makes sense. Oh, wait...

Some might point out that for years we've had people in charge who know the senior players very well, and that it doesn't seem to have helped us much recently. Some might even go as far as to argue that if Head Coaches/DoR's etc knowing the senior players very well was the key to success, we would have won every single game for the last 10 years.

The comparison with England in 2015, while looking similar on the surface is actually spurious. England had the players but not the right coaches, Tigers did not have the players or the coaches. Eddie Jones was/is a very experienced head coach at international level and SB was only going to be forwards coach, SB isn't an experienced head coach at any level and has full responsibility for team matters. With his lack of experience, he would want any reasonable help that he can get.

And some (by which you mean yourself, no need to hide ) could well be right. However, while knowledge of players by the coaches does not guarantee success, I would politely suggest that a lack of knowledge would be a definite hindrance and push the development of the players and team out further into the future.

[jgriffin]

Still thinking we need a defence coach after today? Perhaps that comment of Ellis's about not executing the plan was spot on?

[Crofty]

Still thinking we need a defence coach after today? Perhaps that comment of Ellis's about not executing the plan was spot on?

Haven't argued for the need for a new defence coach, let's see if Ford Sr can do the jobs he's best at, but the slow motion try for their replacement front row looked like it came from a system fragility...

[dunc]

Where do we start?

[Noggs]

We start by giving the new coaching set up a little time to work the magic. So many seem to think it is just a case of waving a wand (apologies to Harry Potter) and all will be well. SB has said many time that he is just looking for steady improvement game on game and with the exception of the second half of the Wasps game I believe we are seeing that.

We have a lot of new faces (some still to arrive) and with fast game turnaround we have needed to blood many new names. This has both pluses and minuses but on the plus side It has allowed the coaching team the chance to experiment and look at the performance of some of the young guns under pressure. Some of it has been good but not all as may reasonably be expected.

This weekend we were able to field quite a strong team against similarly strong opposition and with better discipline the score would most likely have been better. Never-the-less and despite the lack of tries I thought we were the better team and certainly deserved the win.

No need to panic yet

[mol2]

There is a balance within the coaching staff at club level.
Some have to have knowlege of the players so that the new head coach isn't selecting on games seen on TV and a limited time on the training ground.

As time progresses Borthwick will clearly form his own opinions of individual players strengths and weaknesses and how that he can use those in his team.

For me the risk of internal appointments is that it can be hard to be objective when you are close to players that your own playing career overlapped with.

[Tiglon]

There is a balance within the coaching staff at club level.
Some have to have knowlege of the players so that the new head coach isn't selecting on games seen on TV and a limited time on the training ground.

As time progresses Borthwick will clearly form his own opinions of individual players strengths and weaknesses and how that he can use those in his team.

For me the risk of internal appointments is that it can be hard to be objective when you are close to players that your own playing career overlapped with.

Completely agree, it's something that needs to be very carefully considered. Internal promotion is good but, when things need shaking up, it's often very difficult for a familiar face to do it and you really need someone from outside. Perhaps we have a good balance with GM from within and SB from without.

I would almost certainly not consider two members of the same family in senior roles within my organisation, just like I wouldn't want spouses or siblings, but it isn't a rugby club so it's not necessarily comparable. It worked well for the Farrell's.

[mol2]

To be fair to Ford senior he is a proven defence coach at international level.

Why we had him as attack coach last season was puzzling.

However, he is now back in his established role. Since the restart we have at times been better in defence and at times reverted to being a colander. I would say that the times we have leaked post restart were as much about not haveing the players to deal with the defensive structure (if that is the correct terminology for unsructured defence which requires players to know what they should be doing and adjust when others are out of place).

Before lockdown a significant part of the problem was an "after you sir" attitude to tackling and as the game progressed a lack of fitness compared to our opposition. The former is clearly not somehing that someone like Borthwick who has played for Sarries and coached for England was ever going to be permitted to happen and the latter seems to be being addressed with our new fitness coach. For those who may recall we used to have a conditioning coach and before he left we were undoubtely the fittest side and it was a rare thing where the last 20 minutes wasn't Tigers. Other sides caught up and we fell back. I'm not sure who chose to dispense with the fitness coach but it was a mistake. (not sure if it was Cockers)