Midweek Game - Wed 09 Sep Away to Wasps

[Systonite]

Awful second half so far. The more experienced players have added less than the players they replaced.

Disagree with some of that.
Kerr was playing awful
Wells been a improvement on chessum (Who granted is even more out of position)

Kerr was having a mare at the lineout but his mobility was helping cover for the fact we had three locks on against a far more mobile side. Clare has improved the set piece but isn't mobile enough to support the backline which is being overrun.

I'd be tempted to drop a few players to make a point. Ben Youngs who I normally defend on here would be at the top of the list. Coming on to concede a moronic penalty is not leading by example.

Barbeary was lucky that his dominant pack caused him to create a try with a one handed off load while being tackled by two opponents.

Oh the lad looks like an international in the making but having front foot ball and space to show off your considerable talents helps. We know Henry is great ball in hand but he can't show in the second half because we haven't had the ball and the forwards give away penalties every few minutes to ensure we won't.

If anyone from the club claims there are positives to take from this gongshow they need sacking...

First half from the young lads was good. Lots of heart and took the game to Wasps. Second half nothing good.

You seem to have a Kerr agenda.

[westwinds31]

Great to see some of the young lads getting a run out over the last few games, but the concern is, do we have anyone that’s outstanding ? Lots of guys who are showing promise...Steward, Martin, Henderson, Reffell to name a few, but you look across the other teams and they have players already making waves in the first team squad.

Sheedy, Capon, Jones, Barbeary, Randall, Earl, Willis x2, Grayson, De Glanville, Redpath, Dingwall, Hodge, Currys....off the top of my head...ok, some may be a year or two older, but they look the real deal and have made an impact at the Prem level.....where are they at Tigers ? We’ve won the Under 18 league recently so maybe a few didn’t work out.

It’s a long long long road back.

[Dangerous4]

I remain confident that when our top players arrive, and we have a settled side, we shall come good. I have faith in S.B.

[TigerFeetSteve]

Calm down

Yes the last 60min was :censored:, BUT on paper this was always a thrashing.

Since SB & AW's arrivals I have seen:

1- a better lineout (today was the first time it's looked shaky, whereas previously it was virtually every week)

2- breakdown we're actually competing most matches

3- fitness AW has made us noticeably fitter, that's despite us having such a chunk of our new squad unavailable and the games in quick succession

4- signings ok so we've had more disruption to our squad than other teams, unfortunately that's to be expected being a PLC. However I like that we seem to have thought about our replacements rather than go for a knee jerk reaction of who can be at the club next Saturday. That's why we've got signings like Moroni still to arrive as opposed to some of our signings over recent years likes of Eastmond.
Lets have a look at those that have arrived.
Henry, Porter, Potter & Nadolo, most people are listing those 4 in some of the key positives since the restart. To me that shows our recruitment is back on track

So what do we need to stop us being relegation fodder?

1- Cohesion as a team, this needs the squad together, which we need to wait for. Unfortunately there's still lots of restrictions on how players train etc. So this needs patience.

2- Attack, we need ideas in attack but we also need to have our backline together to do that. I also wonder if we've got a few set piece moves and tricks we're keeping our powder dry on till you know a game means something.


When are we going to be competing. It's always been a longer term project. People talk about Bristol when they say we should expect fast results, going from where thy were 2 years ago in the championship to where they are now.
Rock bottom for Bristol relegation 16/17
Promoted 17/18
Lower Mid table 18/19
Top 4 contender 19/20

Ok let's run that timeline for us
Rock bottom 19/20 (would have been relegated but Sarries cheated)
Not in championship but equivalent to that is survival from relegation (on merit) 20/21
Mid table 21/22
Top 4 challenging 22/23

So even if we turn it round as fast as Bristol we shouldn't be expecting a top 4 team till 22/23 season. That's reality, if we turn it round even quicker that's incredible.

Turning teams around takes time. Lets stay calm and give them time rather than sack everyone after the team in 4th's A team beat the team in 11th's B team... Is that a surprise no...

[POSTIGER]

From the BBC:

Leicester director of rugby Geordan Murphy:

"I've been here a very long time and that's the biggest defeat I've been involved in. It's not pretty and I feel like I've been punched in the face quite a few times.

"We have to learn the lessons and we must somehow get back on the horse because that wasn't good enough.

"It's my responsibility. I feel pretty poor.

"It's a bitter pill. We've made some really positive progress in every game we've played but there's an opportunity to learn some big lessons there because we were sub-standard in the second half."

Aside from the usual cliches, I'm a bit concerned that this seems to suggest that GM IS still picking the side, which makes me wonder why we bothered to hire Steve Borthwick? Why bring in a proven international coach but still leave selection to a guy who's record speaks for itself- and not in a good way.

If it is genuinely selection by committee (I'm really not sure it is) then that rarely works imho, SB is Head coach, he should have final say. It feels like he is being held back in my opinion, I don't understand this obsession with having GM involved all the time, it doesn't work.

[AshbyTiger]

I have to echo the realism that some posters have given tonight, and ignore those living off former glories.

1. Whomever is picking the team (this forum seems to be obsessed with who it is) we cannot select the first team 3 times in a week.

2. Our strength in depth is poor, due to a larger player turnover than other sides and a lack of new players being here / available.

3. We have been somewhat unlucky in playing every other teams first choice side - presumably as they see us as bankable points.

4. There have been heavy losses all across the Premiership since the restart. To name a few:
Bristol 47 - 10 Saints
Bath 40 - 15 Worcester
Exeter 59 - 7 Worcester
Sale 40 - 7 Bristol

Some are good sides against weaker sides anyway e.g. Worcester - but a few of those are score lines you would not have predicted before the restart.

5. Those mentioning that Gloucester have a new coach and have done well.
Prior the restart both us and Gloucester had 5 wins. Gloucester have won 2 games since the restart, against us and Irish. They still sit in 8th place. Last year they finished 3rd.
Wasps have improved since a change of coaching but this has been an attack coach being promoted to head coach and they were underperforming for the squad they had before, and their gameplan does not appear to have changed significantly.

Please can we inject some realism into these score lines / performances.

We were lucky not to be relegated last season and we are lucky again this year. As some have said we are not going to be world beaters immediately.

[Wayne Richardson Fan Club]

Arguably the 2 biggest games are coming up ahead now in this part of the year, we really need to show something in one of those.

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Aside from the usual cliches, I'm a bit concerned that this seems to suggest that GM IS still picking the side, which makes me wonder why we bothered to hire Steve Borthwick? Why bring in a proven international coach but still leave selection to a guy who's record speaks for itself- and not in a good way.

Only if you want to read it that way. I really just says he's in charge so has to take responsibility. Which is true.

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4. There have been heavy losses all across the Premiership since the restart. To name a few:
Bristol 47 - 10 Saints
Bath 40 - 15 Worcester
Exeter 59 - 7 Worcester
Sale 40 - 7 Bristol

This is interesting, as even when a good side like Bristol and Northampton put a kids team out they get pummelled.

Yesterday was :censored:, I just hope it gives everybody the impetus to change things. Maybe now as games start to decrease before the new season, and theres actually a game coming that matters (if they want it to), they will alter the selection policy and look to get a few more combinations going.

[BFG]

Leicester were 11th long before Borthwick arrived and were being pummelled by teams from Bath and Glasgow even further back.
I do see some improvements such as the line out but it's little use if you're worse elsewhere.
Leicester is a team overly reliant on structure and the moments that structure waivers it has not the ability, at this level.
I was surprised at selection yesterday.
It may seem like a small thing but the neglect of having a proper 7 just seems totally naive.
For me much of the pack is really struggling at this level.
I was shocked at the tackling yesterday, I've very rarely seen a side get away with their ribs intact playing basketball rugby at this level in recent years.

[kk20gb30]

Before we collectively look for the nearest cliff to jump off or take our ropes to the closest suitable tree a number of points may be worth considering....
Last nights starting line up will bear little or no resemblance to the Leicester side that will open next season , nor in turn what could be classed as its potentially strongest starting XV for the season 2020-21.Fact is , we knew from restart and just prior that there was only one game of relevance left this term - in two weeks time Vs Castres.It is there and then that the real where we are at (now) can begin to be formulated.Even so , now is not where will be next season as further recruits arrive.
To a man on this forum we lauded Steve Borthwick's arrival - so what gives now ? He should and deserves to be judged on games that matter - what we are witnessing now are free hits , nothing more.The same applies to the rest of the coaching line up and they see more than we know.
Regarding team selection I may not necessarily agree with what I have witnessed but again there is much ,much more than I am privy to.I sincerely hope that all the choices made with regard to selection are made by Steve Borthwick - if this is not the case he is not the character I believed he is and ultimately he will deserve his inevitable fate . Everyone however has been granted an opportunity to perform and it could just be that we are seeing those who are not part of our future more so than those that are.
I see my self as a realist and right now the medicine may have a bitter taste , but if it brings about a cure.....

[TigerBoy1880]

From the BBC:

Leicester director of rugby Geordan Murphy:

"I've been here a very long time and that's the biggest defeat I've been involved in. It's not pretty and I feel like I've been punched in the face quite a few times.

"We have to learn the lessons and we must somehow get back on the horse because that wasn't good enough.

"It's my responsibility. I feel pretty poor.

"It's a bitter pill. We've made some really positive progress in every game we've played but there's an opportunity to learn some big lessons there because we were sub-standard in the second half."

Aside from the usual cliches, I'm a bit concerned that this seems to suggest that GM IS still picking the side, which makes me wonder why we bothered to hire Steve Borthwick? Why bring in a proven international coach but still leave selection to a guy who's record speaks for itself- and not in a good way.

If it is genuinely selection by committee (I'm really not sure it is) then that rarely works imho, SB is Head coach, he should have final say. It feels like he is being held back in my opinion, I don't understand this obsession with having GM involved all the time, it doesn't work.

Alternatively, Murphy could put Borthwick in front of the camera and microphone and let him take the blame for his team selection as it has already been said that Borthwick has the final say on team selection. For Murphy to come out, take the blame himself and not blame someone else shows great leadership.

I suppose it depends on your agenda doesn’t it in who you blame out of Borthwick or Murphy?!

Why not say that everyone played their part in the performance and result? We are a team who win and lose together. Borthwick picked the team with some input from Murphy. Those players didn’t perform for 60 minutes. What if they had performed for 80 minutes? The result would have been different.

[Crofty]

I see my self as a realist and right now the medicine may have a bitter taste , but if it brings about a cure.....

The medicine for VD used to be Mercury; just because something is unpleasant doesn't mean that it's good for you.

Yes, the rebuild will take time, and yes SB is the most likely viable candidate we've had since he who mustn't be named lest you set off those who called for his head, but the selection philosophy has gained us one win and 4 pummellings so far whereas something more balanced may well have gotten the youngsters some game time and given us 5 narrow defeats, which to my mind would be better long term. The real worry is where is the evidence we'll be better than this by Easter 2021, because if we're not relegation awaits and with the PLC already struggling I fear what the implications of that truly could be...

[Noggs]

I believe it has been stated in the past that SB has the responsibility of team selection and I can't see him having taken the job without having such control. That said I am equally sure that he will seek feedback and comment from others in the back room team including Smurf before reaching his decisions.

All of this has to be viewed as a project of revival and we can expect to see games like yesterday when, in parts, we were poor. There is a lot of mitigation as SB is no doubt testing the young players to sort the wheat from the chaff as he builds his side for the future. As others have stated the team put out against Wasps has little resemblance to the team we hope to be able to field next season so lets allow SB and his merry band of helpers to get on with the job of building our future success.

[CrumblingTerrace]

"Team selection is my remit; it will continue to be my remit," Murphy told BBC Radio Leicester.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/51190532