Referees

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Wayne Richardson Fan Club
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Re: Referees

Post by Wayne Richardson Fan Club » Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:30 pm

:smt023
wellstiger wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 12:43 pm
TMO's are the new refs. The ref is just the officiating person with a whistle. He is reliant on TMO and BT sports for decision making.
Can we not limit the number of times in a game where we can call on TMO and let a ref get on with it. Surely the game will fow better and then the line officials will have to get involved more.
Yes we will debate poor decisions after the fact but would the game be more exciting. You bet.
Cynical - yeah frustrated - yeah its a bit like the Government dropping the ball and blaming Medical advise - Algorithms etc but giving themselves a wage rise despite poor performance.

I need a lie down.
:smt023
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Noggs
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Re: Referees

Post by Noggs » Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:34 pm

The use or reliance on the TMO is at the ref's discretion. In most cases the ref asks the TMO to look at something he is not sure about be it the grounding of a try, forward pass, knock on or suspected foul play. The object of the exercise is to get better decisions which on balance is achieved. Occasionally the TMO will flag something (serious) up to the ref which he has seen and ask the ref to take a look. The final decision always remains with the ref.

I don't see a ref talking to players as 'coaching' but rather an attempt to arrest potential foul play and keep the game flowing without the need for constant penalties. Shouting 'no' to a player about to step off side because from his position he thinks the ball is out of a ruck is informative to the player. If the player ignores the warning or repeatedly does the same thing again the whistle can be blown and a penalty awarded. This is good reffing.
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Jimmy Skitz
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Re: Referees

Post by Jimmy Skitz » Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:39 pm

Pearce was definitely coaching Irish at scrum time yesterday he should have been pinging them for penalties instead of constantly telling them what they needed to do and resetting.

not to mention his reffing of the offside line, just saying that they went back instead of calling advantage and then actually telling Ben White off for trying to draw them offside

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Re: Referees

Post by Tigerbeat » Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:41 pm

In the case of all three disallowed tries, the decisions were spot on and should be applauded. Had it been another team in the same position and playing against Tigers and the scores given, Tigers would not happy.
Luke asked for the obstruction, which turned to be offside, and the last pass to Nadolo to be reviewed.
The grounding of the ball for the other try was very clear that it had been held up.
Happy for the TMO to review as 95 times out of 100, the right outcome is given, in these cases, no try.
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OakhamTiger32
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Re: Referees

Post by OakhamTiger32 » Thu Aug 27, 2020 4:47 pm

Tigerbeat wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:41 pm
In the case of all three disallowed tries, the decisions were spot on and should be applauded. Had it been another team in the same position and playing against Tigers and the scores given, Tigers would not happy.
Luke asked for the obstruction, which turned to be offside, and the last pass to Nadolo to be reviewed.
The grounding of the ball for the other try was very clear that it had been held up.
Happy for the TMO to review as 95 times out of 100, the right outcome is given, in these cases, no try.
Completely agree and yes, all 3 were the correct decision. The frustration comes when the TMO doesn’t chip in when we’re on the receiving end.. Exeter blocking, potential forward pass by Bath etc.. if it was consistent then that’s perfect it just seems a bit hit and miss..
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Noggs
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Re: Referees

Post by Noggs » Thu Aug 27, 2020 6:01 pm

Jimmy Skitz wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:39 pm
Pearce was definitely coaching Irish at scrum time yesterday he should have been pinging them for penalties instead of constantly telling them what they needed to do and resetting.

not to mention his reffing of the offside line, just saying that they went back instead of calling advantage and then actually telling Ben White off for trying to draw them offside
In the end it is down to the judgement of each ref. I agree with you that his reffing of the scrum was poor, allowing the same problems to be repeated without sanction. A better ref may have told them once and pinged them for a repeat offence but he has to be able to first tell them what he believes they are doing wrong. We also need better input from the assistants who often have a better view of what is going on. The number of times you see a props knee go to ground only for him to regain his feet and carry on. I'ts a shame there are not more refs with front row experience.
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Re: Referees

Post by Jimmy Skitz » Thu Aug 27, 2020 6:05 pm

Noggs wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 6:01 pm
Jimmy Skitz wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:39 pm
Pearce was definitely coaching Irish at scrum time yesterday he should have been pinging them for penalties instead of constantly telling them what they needed to do and resetting.

not to mention his reffing of the offside line, just saying that they went back instead of calling advantage and then actually telling Ben White off for trying to draw them offside
In the end it is down to the judgement of each ref. I agree with you that his reffing of the scrum was poor, allowing the same problems to be repeated without sanction. A better ref may have told them once and pinged them for a repeat offence but he has to be able to first tell them what he believes they are doing wrong. We also need better input from the assistants who often have a better view of what is going on. The number of times you see a props knee go to ground only for him to regain his feet and carry on. I'ts a shame there are not more refs with front row experience.
Oh yeah don't get me wrong a couple of warnings are fine but by the 3rd or 4th time it should be free kicks/penalties awarded

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Re: Referees

Post by mol2 » Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:30 pm

Jimmy Skitz wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:39 pm
Pearce was definitely coaching Irish at scrum time yesterday he should have been pinging them for penalties instead of constantly telling them what they needed to do and resetting.

not to mention his reffing of the offside line, just saying that they went back instead of calling advantage and then actually telling Ben White off for trying to draw them offside
Infuriating.
1 warning at most then penalty and explain the reasoning and leave the teams to decide whether to stop infringing or take punishment.

White did not dummy so the ref should not have been reprimanding him.

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Re: Referees

Post by Noggs » Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:42 am

I thinks we are in agreement. The ref did not have his best game.
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Re: Referees

Post by ABClub » Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:06 am

The reffing of the scrum frustrated me but outside of that I don't have any qualms. The disallowed tries were all the right decision, though the long running inconsistency in when dummy runners get called for obstruction is frustrating.

The offside line was poorly reffed but that was true for both sides in my opinion. I actually felt that Tigers were a touch lucky that Reffell didn't go to the bin soon after Green did. Reffell made a tackle less than 5m out from the line, bounced back to his feet without trying to retreat and tackled the player who picked and went from the ruck. He was metres offside and it was a cynical offence in the red zone when LI had quick ball.

The Green yellow card offence could arguably have been a penalty try as well. The only thing that stopped the tap and go resulting in a try was Green making that tackle knowing he was offside.

As is often the case in scrappy, error ridden matches there were a lot of infringements to call from both sides. As such I've chatted to both Tigers and LI fans who feel the reffing was poor.

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Re: Referees

Post by DingDong » Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:45 am

ABClub wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:06 am
The Green yellow card offence could arguably have been a penalty try as well. The only thing that stopped the tap and go resulting in a try was Green making that tackle knowing he was offside.
There were Tigers onside behind Green so wouldn't of been a penalty try. Green is looking like a great signing, as does his mate Clare who's set piece and open play look solid.

Pearce bottled it so many times at the scrum. When you hear refs at the scrum repeatedly saying generic remarks such as "Come on, sort it out" or "You've got to do better than this" you know they haven't a clue what's going on because they are being lazy. The resets are down to weak reffing as they should be pinged straight away.

So many inconsistencies from every game since the Premiership restarted, thought it was rustiness but looks more like poor reffing with all those blatant forward passes and offsides.

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Re: Referees

Post by kk20gb30 » Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:14 am

Inconsistency and idiosyncratic applications of the laws have and are becoming more and more noticeable , and not just since re start.

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Re: Referees

Post by Robespierre » Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:55 am

The redundancy from the RFU of JP Doyle really grates for me. Ok, he made mistakes with the whistle, but who the hell doesn't? For me, he came across as one of the better refs and didn't deserve the axe. If the RFU needs to make economies, surely there must be some blazers from the old boys' network that wouldn't be missed?
Maybe he'll become a ref at grass roots level near his home. Hope so!
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Re: Referees

Post by wellstiger » Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:58 pm

Right I've had my lie down. I've read the posts and feel better with myself.
To a point I stand by the point I make that, in the modern game, Refs have become too reliant on TMO.
Yes they micro manage every nuance of play and allow the TMO to get involved.Especially for dangerous play. Yes I agree that if the shoe was on the other foot i would be shouting at the tele the wife and kicking the dog ( joking of course ) Yes they get it right eventually.
But I cannot believe, if we are relying on this tech, continual offside infringements. obviously forward passes, professional blocking, dropping the scrum and feeds into scrum are not picked up on. Who therefore decides what is implemented or not.
One team or another is disadvantaged and then this becomes frustrating as the game goes on. LI frustrated the hell out of me.
Sirs should referee the rules unbiasedly. Nigel Owens would not tolerate the scrum fiasco and would ping teams and yellow card
I know for some he is marmite but 95-97% he got it right.
How many times have we seen the linesperson get involved. Are they now only able to get involved if Sir asks them? (Cynical)
For me it is now a lottery as to how a Sir is going to ref. What team Sir is going to give lea way just so the game can flow.
If pundits are the crooked feeds, engagement at scrum time and continual resets are killing the game - surely the easy fix would be apply the rules and ping.
And breath....................

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Re: Referees

Post by chewbacca » Sat Aug 29, 2020 1:31 pm

I thought lines persons had been non-paying part of the crowd for several years now.
I'm not cynical just experienced

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