Teams up v Bath

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johnthegriff
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Re: Teams up v Bath

Post by johnthegriff » Sun Aug 23, 2020 1:10 pm

We have a new head coach and a much changed squad with a number of new players still to be brought into the mix. There are no Premier Cup/ L.V matches to give Steve Borthwick the opportunity to see his squad players in match action. Yesterday we fielded a very young team against a strong and experienced Bath, they were not disgraced. From previous posts it is clear that there are differing views on the contribution of certain players the one point of agreement is McPhillips at 10, I agree he did not have a good game but I have seen him play better and he will again. I thought Worth looked better at centre than he did last week at fullback. People seem to forget just how young Heyes is for a prop, he is a big lad and in under 20's superior weght and strength has given him an advantage that he does not have in the men's game, he will develop better technique as he gets game time against stronger opposition. Martin did well and in a couple of years time will be a lot better. I liked the look of Henry at 10 and Porter in the centre. I feel Hardwick at 12 is the way forward for us although that would mean Scott moving to 13. Steward will be a quality performer for us at 15 or anywhere else that we can get him into the team in the next year or so.
Yesterday I thought the strength of the Bath back row was the main difference but with Liebenberg, Taufua and Reffell available in other matches we are not weak in that department, we do appear to like the idea of using a lock at 6 and Wells,Green and now Martin have had experience there.
The result against Bath was as expected and could have been worse but I am still optimistic for the future and I am proud of the fact that we have used so many players that are graduates of our own Academy, far more than many clubs that are perceived as being strong in developing their own youth.

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Re: Teams up v Bath

Post by jgriffin » Sun Aug 23, 2020 1:19 pm

Crofty wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 1:02 pm
Some of you do realise that it is possible to be disappointed in yesterday's shellacking (and it was a shellacking, 10-15 minutes of "gloss" at the end when Bath switched off only altered the scoreboard not the actual performance) while also understanding that improvement will come with our objectively better set up, right? Or to put it another way would it be fair for me to just presume that those criticising the critics are following the Melchettian tactic of, "if nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through"?

There are two selection philosophies that are available in this dead rubber period, A) mix in the new faces with the older heads to try and develop new partnerships and bring on the youngsters by having them play alongside experienced stars or B) have a Test team and a Midweek team. A) to my mind, and probably to the minds of most of those who found yesterday unacceptable, would probably lead to more losses but they'd be closer and, by changing the actual composition of the mixtures, would give indications of how the new faces would blend in in more realistic injury/international absence cover situations. B) is what you do when you're trying to tooth and claw as many wins as you can, if Sarries hadn't been a big bunch of cheats I'd be advocating B), which is what the coaches have gone for, but they were so I'm not.

What did we actually learn yesterday, that our seconds are a long way behind Bath's firsts, not sure that needed empirical validation but OK, that Lavanini is a bit of a penalty magnet, again could have found that out with a more mixed selection, and the relative merits of our seconds mostly among themselves, we can't say we learned anything definitive about them or how they stack up relative to the firsts because we do not know, and can not know, how the firsts would have got on. Maybe they would have been buried by 60, maybe they'd have pantsed Bath and taken a 5 pointer with the words, "White, Ford, Scott, Potter! POTTER!!!" becoming t-shirt fodder for generations to come...

The only hope I have is that I hope Smurf and the Dark Lord understand that this selection hasn't told them much in direct comparison to the established names and so the youngsters get another chance alongside more established names or we'll be on here in 5 years time watching our academy prospects who we let whither on the vine once again tear up trees for Premiership rivals.
Sometimes you just have to give up bothering about perpetual negativity. :smt013
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kk20gb30
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Re: Teams up v Bath

Post by kk20gb30 » Sun Aug 23, 2020 1:30 pm

Without being negative or pessimistic , is it not permissible to query our defensive structure and ball retention ?
Much work still has to be done and the basis of a bluprint still has to emerge irrespective of the individual make up of the side.
Performance does matter and cannot be simply written off.
Versus Bath there were positives , be equally negatives also.

BFG
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Re: Teams up v Bath

Post by BFG » Sun Aug 23, 2020 1:39 pm

It's reasonable to be dissatisfied with the defensive effort yesterday and anyone who thinks that our new coach will be satisfied is kidding themselves.
That the defence wasn't good enough isn't negativity.
It is the truth.
I dislike these games for looking at potential positives as you never know for sure if the opposition have taken their foot off the gas.

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Re: Teams up v Bath

Post by Crivvens » Sun Aug 23, 2020 1:47 pm

Grumpy of Crumbie wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 12:13 pm
I read with interest the variety of views after two games under the new regime. A large number of those who were shouting for huge change at all levels Board, Coaching and Playing and subsequently got their wish now appear very dissatisfied with the progress made after two games. The DOR, a number of players, the chairman are already being singled out as not good enough and should go.

Of course everyone is entitled to an opinion so here is mine to be put alongside those of the ‘armchair coaches’.

Taking a step back and trying to look at the facts about where we are.

The players haven’t played any competitive rugby for over 4 months, the new coaching team have only been working together in anything close to a ‘normal’ coaching situation for a few weeks. The huge changes in playing staff have resulted in players arriving at different times with varying levels of fitness.

The head coach and his team have made two team selections and whether you agree with those selections or not surely respect has to be given to the new coaching team who were welcomed as a positive step forward by pretty much everybody.

The coaches have now given game time to most, if not all of the available playing squad and will have seen a large number of those players perform in a competitive game for the first time. You can debate for ever about the mix of the selections but surely, for now at least, we have to give this high quality, tried and tested international coaching team some credibility for knowing what they are doing.

Yes there is a view that the lockdown has been the same for all teams but clearly it hasn’t. No other team comes close to the changes that have taken place at Tigers during this period. A hugely changed squad and coaching team have to work together to develop as a team with a clear and coherent approach to the way both individuals and team are expected to play. I can’t think of any other area of life where you would expect to achieve this in just a few weeks so why rugby?

We have played two teams who have fielded close to full strength sides that have had minimal changes since play was suspended. I’m sure the coaches will have learnt an awful lot from those two games and that won’t just be rugby skills but character, discipline, determination and all those other good things that go into making a successful rugby player. Many were calling for the introduction of the youngsters, well that is happening. Almost certainly some will sink and some will swim. Shouldn’t we have trust in the coaching team to make those calls.

Surely the only remote possibility of instant success is to buy experienced players who in theory can hit the ground running, gel immediately into a coherent team and produce world beating performances. You know those affectionately referred to as ‘journeymen’ on this forum. Sorry forgot, that’s been tried and also dismissed by the forum as the wrong approach.

The coaching team and playing squad have been gifted a series of fixtures against the best teams in England where arguably the result isn’t the most important factor. I hate losing as much as anyone but I would expect the coaches can’t believe their luck in having this series of games to implement their vision for the future. While you’d hope for victories as the plan begins to take shape I’d take losing all these fixtures if we start next season as a highly competitive team, with a clear identity that nobody wants to against.
Great post, you've written pretty much what I would have if I could've been bothered. :smt003
Blimey...

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Re: Teams up v Bath

Post by ay2oh » Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:05 pm

Crivvens wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 1:47 pm
Grumpy of Crumbie wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 12:13 pm
I read with interest the variety of views after two games under the new regime. A large number of those who were shouting for huge change at all levels Board, Coaching and Playing and subsequently got their wish now appear very dissatisfied with the progress made after two games. The DOR, a number of players, the chairman are already being singled out as not good enough and should go.

Of course everyone is entitled to an opinion so here is mine to be put alongside those of the ‘armchair coaches’.

Taking a step back and trying to look at the facts about where we are.

The players haven’t played any competitive rugby for over 4 months, the new coaching team have only been working together in anything close to a ‘normal’ coaching situation for a few weeks. The huge changes in playing staff have resulted in players arriving at different times with varying levels of fitness.

The head coach and his team have made two team selections and whether you agree with those selections or not surely respect has to be given to the new coaching team who were welcomed as a positive step forward by pretty much everybody.

The coaches have now given game time to most, if not all of the available playing squad and will have seen a large number of those players perform in a competitive game for the first time. You can debate for ever about the mix of the selections but surely, for now at least, we have to give this high quality, tried and tested international coaching team some credibility for knowing what they are doing.

Yes there is a view that the lockdown has been the same for all teams but clearly it hasn’t. No other team comes close to the changes that have taken place at Tigers during this period. A hugely changed squad and coaching team have to work together to develop as a team with a clear and coherent approach to the way both individuals and team are expected to play. I can’t think of any other area of life where you would expect to achieve this in just a few weeks so why rugby?

We have played two teams who have fielded close to full strength sides that have had minimal changes since play was suspended. I’m sure the coaches will have learnt an awful lot from those two games and that won’t just be rugby skills but character, discipline, determination and all those other good things that go into making a successful rugby player. Many were calling for the introduction of the youngsters, well that is happening. Almost certainly some will sink and some will swim. Shouldn’t we have trust in the coaching team to make those calls.

Surely the only remote possibility of instant success is to buy experienced players who in theory can hit the ground running, gel immediately into a coherent team and produce world beating performances. You know those affectionately referred to as ‘journeymen’ on this forum. Sorry forgot, that’s been tried and also dismissed by the forum as the wrong approach.

The coaching team and playing squad have been gifted a series of fixtures against the best teams in England where arguably the result isn’t the most important factor. I hate losing as much as anyone but I would expect the coaches can’t believe their luck in having this series of games to implement their vision for the future. While you’d hope for victories as the plan begins to take shape I’d take losing all these fixtures if we start next season as a highly competitive team, with a clear identity that nobody wants to against.
Great post, you've written pretty much what I would have if I could've been bothered. :smt003
+ 1
A2O

Traveller
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Re: Teams up v Bath

Post by Traveller » Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:10 pm

For me the bye words are 'humility' and 'patience'. There is a danger that lockdown allows us to forget just how utterly dreadful, we were pre C19. We were useless. We weren't fit. We didn't have a plan. Players didn't seem to care. The 'team' gave up. In fact nothing in our performances over the last couple of years have made me feel we were a 'team'. The performances did not align with any of the characteristics of being 'a team'. We were individuals who wore the same shirt and changed in the same changing room. I will not even begin to write about the quality of coaching............

So in the context of professional standards, we are not only starting from scratch, we actually need to start from scratch. The fact that a Tiger's hooker threw the ball into a line out yesterday and we secured possession was a minor miracle. The fact in both games players have given the distinct impression that they will play for 80 minutes is progress. The fact the defence is porous is no surprise - there haven't been any effect systems of play in place for years - the scrummaging being an exception - so why would that change after just 80 minutes of rugby.

But we now have a fine coaching team, huge strength to draw on over the coming months in terms of new players, and some of those players are homegrown and are desperate to play for Tigers. So for me, and I'm not lecturing anyone else - forums are about opinions - but for me it's about humility and patience.

ay2oh
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Re: Teams up v Bath

Post by ay2oh » Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:19 pm

Traveller wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:10 pm
For me the bye words are 'humility' and 'patience'. There is a danger that lockdown allows us to forget just how utterly dreadful, we were pre C19. We were useless. We weren't fit. We didn't have a plan. Players didn't seem to care. The 'team' gave up. In fact nothing in our performances over the last couple of years have made me feel we were a 'team'. The performances did not align with any of the characteristics of being 'a team'. We were individuals who wore the same shirt and changed in the same changing room. I will not even begin to write about the quality of coaching............

So in the context of professional standards, we are not only starting from scratch, we actually need to start from scratch. The fact that a Tiger's hooker threw the ball into a line out yesterday and we secured possession was a minor miracle. The fact in both games players have given the distinct impression that they will play for 80 minutes is progress. The fact the defence is porous is no surprise - there haven't been any effect systems of play in place for years - the scrummaging being an exception - so why would that change after just 80 minutes of rugby.

But we now have a fine coaching team, huge strength to draw on over the coming months in terms of new players, and some of those players are homegrown and are desperate to play for Tigers. So for me, and I'm not lecturing anyone else - forums are about opinions - but for me it's about humility and patience.
Good post
A2O

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Re: Teams up v Bath

Post by Wayne Richardson Fan Club » Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:15 pm

I expected the loss yesterday when I saw the respective teams, what was difficult to take were the two Bath 2nd half trys, they were poor to concede, a little too easy to score.
We look fitter, (bar McPhillips, who had nearly as much strapping as Dosser used to wear), of that run on XV you would put many (if any) in a theoretical best XV, there were players yesterday who deserve a chance in a stronger overall team.
Let's see what Weds brings, although that could be too far the other way....
We have a good few of our probable best 23 not available at the moment so reasons to be optimistic.
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Re: Teams up v Bath

Post by sapajo » Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:22 pm

Sadly Mcphillips did not impress yesterday for me it was a carbon copy of a poor effort he put out on the field at Welford Road earlier this season when he also started but cannot remember the opposition. At this juncture I cannot see why his contract was renewed.
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Jimmy Skitz
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Re: Teams up v Bath

Post by Jimmy Skitz » Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:24 pm

sapajo wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:22 pm
Sadly Mcphillips did not impress yesterday for me it was a carbon copy of a poor effort he put out on the field at Welford Road earlier this season when he also started but cannot remember the opposition. At this juncture I cannot see why his contract was renewed.
doesn't he also play 15? maybe that should be his role here

Scuttle
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Re: Teams up v Bath

Post by Scuttle » Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:47 pm

ay2oh wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:05 pm
Crivvens wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 1:47 pm
Grumpy of Crumbie wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 12:13 pm
I read with interest the variety of views after two games under the new regime. A large number of those who were shouting for huge change at all levels Board, Coaching and Playing and subsequently got their wish now appear very dissatisfied with the progress made after two games. The DOR, a number of players, the chairman are already being singled out as not good enough and should go.

Of course everyone is entitled to an opinion so here is mine to be put alongside those of the ‘armchair coaches’.

Taking a step back and trying to look at the facts about where we are.

The players haven’t played any competitive rugby for over 4 months, the new coaching team have only been working together in anything close to a ‘normal’ coaching situation for a few weeks. The huge changes in playing staff have resulted in players arriving at different times with varying levels of fitness.

The head coach and his team have made two team selections and whether you agree with those selections or not surely respect has to be given to the new coaching team who were welcomed as a positive step forward by pretty much everybody.

The coaches have now given game time to most, if not all of the available playing squad and will have seen a large number of those players perform in a competitive game for the first time. You can debate for ever about the mix of the selections but surely, for now at least, we have to give this high quality, tried and tested international coaching team some credibility for knowing what they are doing.

Yes there is a view that the lockdown has been the same for all teams but clearly it hasn’t. No other team comes close to the changes that have taken place at Tigers during this period. A hugely changed squad and coaching team have to work together to develop as a team with a clear and coherent approach to the way both individuals and team are expected to play. I can’t think of any other area of life where you would expect to achieve this in just a few weeks so why rugby?

We have played two teams who have fielded close to full strength sides that have had minimal changes since play was suspended. I’m sure the coaches will have learnt an awful lot from those two games and that won’t just be rugby skills but character, discipline, determination and all those other good things that go into making a successful rugby player. Many were calling for the introduction of the youngsters, well that is happening. Almost certainly some will sink and some will swim. Shouldn’t we have trust in the coaching team to make those calls.

Surely the only remote possibility of instant success is to buy experienced players who in theory can hit the ground running, gel immediately into a coherent team and produce world beating performances. You know those affectionately referred to as ‘journeymen’ on this forum. Sorry forgot, that’s been tried and also dismissed by the forum as the wrong approach.

The coaching team and playing squad have been gifted a series of fixtures against the best teams in England where arguably the result isn’t the most important factor. I hate losing as much as anyone but I would expect the coaches can’t believe their luck in having this series of games to implement their vision for the future. While you’d hope for victories as the plan begins to take shape I’d take losing all these fixtures if we start next season as a highly competitive team, with a clear identity that nobody wants to against.
Great post, you've written pretty much what I would have if I could've been bothered. :smt003
+ 1
+2
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fentiger
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Re: Teams up v Bath

Post by fentiger » Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:56 pm

jgriffin wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 11:07 am
I can only glean positives from yesterday. It was a dead rubber, yet we found that Henry is a very good 10 (the goal kicking will come back), McWilliams isn't, Martin, Smith, Kerr, Leatigaga, Clare are quality players on the up, etc. Fitness levels are very good and can reach top international level if this has been done over a few weeks with Walters.
There is no way a bunch of possibles and development players could be expected to play and beat a largely international team in their first ever competitive game together.
Defence and attack need work, but that was a known with such a new squad.
We need a couple more games with the full squad to get a hold on what to expect, but seeing how Chiefs stuffed Sale (courtesy of Foley's blind eye for blocking etc, as with us), our result at Sandy Park seems a lot less awful than some put out on here.
+1 :smt023
To all these sides gleefully sending their strongest teams to beat us at this time, I would say this: make hay whilst the sun shines, summer won't last much longer :smt003

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Re: Teams up v Bath

Post by Crofty » Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:15 pm

fentiger wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:56 pm
jgriffin wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 11:07 am
I can only glean positives from yesterday. It was a dead rubber, yet we found that Henry is a very good 10 (the goal kicking will come back), McWilliams isn't, Martin, Smith, Kerr, Leatigaga, Clare are quality players on the up, etc. Fitness levels are very good and can reach top international level if this has been done over a few weeks with Walters.
There is no way a bunch of possibles and development players could be expected to play and beat a largely international team in their first ever competitive game together.
Defence and attack need work, but that was a known with such a new squad.
We need a couple more games with the full squad to get a hold on what to expect, but seeing how Chiefs stuffed Sale (courtesy of Foley's blind eye for blocking etc, as with us), our result at Sandy Park seems a lot less awful than some put out on here.
+1 :smt023
To all these sides gleefully sending their strongest teams to beat us at this time, I would say this: make hay whilst the sun shines, summer won't last much longer :smt003
Everyone (OK, the comentators) was so keen to make a pun on Harry Potter getting his first start yesterday, let's spread it out to George Martin...

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AngusMcCoatup
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Re: Teams up v Bath

Post by AngusMcCoatup » Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:15 pm

What we saw yesterday was a very brave selection from our Coaches and I doubt that many other teams would have attempted that against an established team of 12 internationals but it has shown Tigers have the makings of a great young team ~ sorting the wheat from the chaff is necessary and at an ideal time too. Yes the summer won't last much longer but when these lads mature the harvest is going to be plentiful. I always remember the groans on the terrace all those years ago when a young Dan Cole came on and now we are utilising the revived Academy more and building for the future.
Oh I wish I was there yesterday making noise and cheering on the Tigers..
What a shame we cannot park a sound truck near the ground blasting out the Crumbie sounds. :smt027
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