Ringfencing almost upon us ?

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Mark62
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by Mark62 » Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:20 pm

CrumblingTerrace wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:00 pm
An American-style draft would be a lot of fun.
I still don’t understand that system with all the trades etc.

Crofty
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by Crofty » Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:45 pm

Mark62 wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:20 pm
CrumblingTerrace wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:00 pm
An American-style draft would be a lot of fun.
I still don’t understand that system with all the trades etc.
It's reasonably simple (or at least the NFL draf is, others include loteries to reduce the appeal for teams "tanking" to get the first pick); the teams take it in turns to pick a player from all the players coming out of the universities that year, starting with the team that winched the season last, then the team that finished second last all the way to the super bowl winner, then they go back to the start. Each time through the list is a round so first pick of the first round is the first pick, first pick of the second round is the 33rd pick and so on.

The trades are something on top but again are reasonably simple, a team can give any of its turns in a future draft to other another team as part payment for a player, so if, say New England were to trade a player from Baltimore for $100 million and their second round pick in the 2022 draft and then New England won the super bowl with Baltimore finishing 8th, New England would pay Baltimore the $100 million straight away and then in the 2022 draft get to pick 32nd and 96th and Baltimore would get to pick 25th, 57th, 64th and 89th (if my maths is right) from the players coming out of the universities in 2022.
No, not that one!

Remember, whatever you do to the smallest of the backs you do to his prop, and you can't avoid the rucks and mauls forever...

teds
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by teds » Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:20 pm

Mark62 wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:39 pm
nasher wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:28 pm
Will ring fencing benefit the sport? I personally doubt it. It will become a servant of mammon, a privileged elite motivated and continually in pursuit of money. Rules will be changed to suit the media they are chasing for more money.
Unfortunately the game I played as a youth and followed for years is being destroyed.
The people supposed to be managing and safeguarding the sport have proved their incompetence. Sad times
Going to slightly disagree with you here, ring fencing will potentially make careers longer, less pressure to play when injured, and enable clubs to integrate younger players again without the extreme pressure of having to win every game.
This has nothing to do with chasing money, far more to do with clubs existing within their means, without the need for sugar daddys who will disappear at thee drop of a hat.
You possibly haven’t seen the news about the Tigers losing £5 million in revenue and this increasing weekly.
Sorry Mark62, I think Nasher hit the nail on the head. The last thing we need in the sport is to increase dependence on sugar daddies. Ring fencing will just encourage them to gamble more and frankly they need to be discouraged.

Mark62
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by Mark62 » Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:27 pm

teds wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:20 pm
Mark62 wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:39 pm
nasher wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:28 pm
Will ring fencing benefit the sport? I personally doubt it. It will become a servant of mammon, a privileged elite motivated and continually in pursuit of money. Rules will be changed to suit the media they are chasing for more money.
Unfortunately the game I played as a youth and followed for years is being destroyed.
The people supposed to be managing and safeguarding the sport have proved their incompetence. Sad times
Going to slightly disagree with you here, ring fencing will potentially make careers longer, less pressure to play when injured, and enable clubs to integrate younger players again without the extreme pressure of having to win every game.
This has nothing to do with chasing money, far more to do with clubs existing within their means, without the need for sugar daddys who will disappear at thee drop of a hat.
You possibly haven’t seen the news about the Tigers losing £5 million in revenue and this increasing weekly.
Sorry Mark62, I think Nasher hit the nail on the head. The last thing we need in the sport is to increase dependence on sugar daddies. Ring fencing will just encourage them to gamble more and frankly they need to be discouraged.
Sorry Teds but if you read what I’ve put I actually say that this will help clubs exist within their means, without the need for sugar daddys.
How that can be construed as wanting more sugar daddy’s I’m not sure.

BFG
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by BFG » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:09 am

That the league will be closed up for Sarries return is weak.
If anyone believes that it's best then show some bottle and do it now from the start of 20/21 with 12 teams.
13 teams is a stupidly wasted weekend for each club and also an unfair advantage when a club that has had two weeks preparation plays against a team that hasn't.

SthrnTiger
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by SthrnTiger » Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:07 am

BFG wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:09 am
That the league will be closed up for Sarries return is weak.
If anyone believes that it's best then show some bottle and do it now from the start of 20/21 with 12 teams.
13 teams is a stupidly wasted weekend for each club and also an unfair advantage when a club that has had two weeks preparation plays against a team that hasn't.
I believe reason for 13 teams is because the 13 teams are shareholders of premiership rugby.

Mark62
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by Mark62 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:11 am

BFG wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:09 am
That the league will be closed up for Sarries return is weak.
If anyone believes that it's best then show some bottle and do it now from the start of 20/21 with 12 teams.
13 teams is a stupidly wasted weekend for each club and also an unfair advantage when a club that has had two weeks preparation plays against a team that hasn't.
I agree with your point in principle but there are 13 teams in the premiership group, so short of one of the dropping out that’s not going to happen. The only option would be to invite Ealing, for instance, into the group and make it a 14 team league, but then people would moan about that too
Your 2nd point confuses me slightly as each side will have that benefit twice through the season, so no side is losing or gaining any benefit, unless you’re the team that has their 2nd bye week last week of the season.

BFG
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by BFG » Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:19 am

SthrnTiger wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:07 am
BFG wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:09 am
That the league will be closed up for Sarries return is weak.
If anyone believes that it's best then show some bottle and do it now from the start of 20/21 with 12 teams.
13 teams is a stupidly wasted weekend for each club and also an unfair advantage when a club that has had two weeks preparation plays against a team that hasn't.
I believe reason for 13 teams is because the 13 teams are shareholders of premiership rugby.
Yep and it's silly.
No idea if it'll really matter anyway on the final standings in a league of friendlies, but two weeks preparation over one week in a contact sport is a huge advantage.
Just do it now with 12.
The regulations were broken anyway.

Mark62
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by Mark62 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:24 am

BFG wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:19 am
SthrnTiger wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:07 am
BFG wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:09 am
That the league will be closed up for Sarries return is weak.
If anyone believes that it's best then show some bottle and do it now from the start of 20/21 with 12 teams.
13 teams is a stupidly wasted weekend for each club and also an unfair advantage when a club that has had two weeks preparation plays against a team that hasn't.
I believe reason for 13 teams is because the 13 teams are shareholders of premiership rugby.
Yep and it's silly.
No idea if it'll really matter anyway on the final standings in a league of friendlies, but two weeks preparation over one week in a contact sport is a huge advantage.
Just do it now with 12.
The regulations were broken anyway.
I understand that so are you saying it should be done immediately without Saracens

johnthegriff
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by johnthegriff » Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:30 am

I simply do not agree with ringfencing. Over the years we have seen ambitious clubs, invest in their stadium and team some have succeeded others have not but all have the right to ambition. In England we do not have the municipal stadiums that they have in France but we do have a wide spread of pretty decent lower league football grounds, Championship clubs should be looking at shared facilities in their immediate area. They have a product that with opportunities of genuine promotion would be worth a T.V deal and they should be actively seeking that, increasing revenue and boosting sponsorship.
BFG alluded to cheats prospering under ringfencing, I agree, were there to be a breach of the salary cap what is the punishment, a fine for a team backed by a super rich guy who will not miss a few million, or do you condemn that team to oblivion, penalising its fans who are innocent of any wrong.
I believe the result of ring fencing would be the eventual end of the salary cap and our game would become the plaything of the super rich with no incentive to improve facilities in the way that most Premiership clubs have done over the years.

BFG
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by BFG » Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:32 am

Mark62 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:24 am
BFG wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:19 am
SthrnTiger wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:07 am

I believe reason for 13 teams is because the 13 teams are shareholders of premiership rugby.
Yep and it's silly.
No idea if it'll really matter anyway on the final standings in a league of friendlies, but two weeks preparation over one week in a contact sport is a huge advantage.
Just do it now with 12.
The regulations were broken anyway.
I understand that so are you saying it should be done immediately without Saracens
If they are going to do it then do right with or without Sarries.
13 teams simply isn't right and will create an uneven playing field within the league.
12 or 14 clubs.
I personally don't think it should be ringfenced at all, but if other opinions think it should be then at least do it right.
It does look and feel like Sarries are dictators.

Mark62
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by Mark62 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:39 am

johnthegriff wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:30 am
I simply do not agree with ringfencing. Over the years we have seen ambitious clubs, invest in their stadium and team some have succeeded others have not but all have the right to ambition. In England we do not have the municipal stadiums that they have in France but we do have a wide spread of pretty decent lower league football grounds, Championship clubs should be looking at shared facilities in their immediate area. They have a product that with opportunities of genuine promotion would be worth a T.V deal and they should be actively seeking that, increasing revenue and boosting sponsorship.
BFG alluded to cheats prospering under ringfencing, I agree, were there to be a breach of the salary cap what is the punishment, a fine for a team backed by a super rich guy who will not miss a few million, or do you condemn that team to oblivion, penalising its fans who are innocent of any wrong.
I believe the result of ring fencing would be the eventual end of the salary cap and our game would become the plaything of the super rich with no incentive to improve facilities in the way that most Premiership clubs have done over the years.
So what are the other options.
I disagree with the impact that other posters are saying the rich owners will have, the lowering of the salary cap and the removal of marquee players in a couple of seasons, will greatly reduce their impact, to where they are bank rolling loss making businesses. Yes people will find their way around things but it’s up to the others to police it.

I’m afraid those people who disagree with ring fencing are the same ones who complain about player burnout, and young players not being introduced.
There is no proof whatsoever that ring fencing will mean the end of the salary cap

Mark62
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by Mark62 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:40 am

BFG wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:32 am
Mark62 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:24 am
BFG wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:19 am


Yep and it's silly.
No idea if it'll really matter anyway on the final standings in a league of friendlies, but two weeks preparation over one week in a contact sport is a huge advantage.
Just do it now with 12.
The regulations were broken anyway.
I understand that so are you saying it should be done immediately without Saracens
If they are going to do it then do right with or without Sarries.
13 teams simply isn't right and will create an uneven playing field within the league.
12 or 14 clubs.
I personally don't think it should be ringfenced at all, but if other opinions think it should be then at least do it right.
It does look and feel like Sarries are dictators.
How and where does it look and feel like that.
Are they driving The Championship sides with their ring fencing too ??

BFG
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by BFG » Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:50 am

Mark62 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:40 am
BFG wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:32 am
Mark62 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:24 am


I understand that so are you saying it should be done immediately without Saracens
If they are going to do it then do right with or without Sarries.
13 teams simply isn't right and will create an uneven playing field within the league.
12 or 14 clubs.
I personally don't think it should be ringfenced at all, but if other opinions think it should be then at least do it right.
It does look and feel like Sarries are dictators.
How and where does it look and feel like that.
Are they driving The Championship sides with their ring fencing too ??
The entire thing is being driven for a team that broke the salary cap rules to return before it can happen.
The Championship clubs have had their funding slashed, they are being bullied into a corner financially.
It's where certain owners always wanted to be, which is a closed shop of ugly franchised clubs playing anywhere where there is a fee to be had.

Mark62
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by Mark62 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:58 am

BFG wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:50 am
Mark62 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:40 am
BFG wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:32 am


If they are going to do it then do right with or without Sarries.
13 teams simply isn't right and will create an uneven playing field within the league.
12 or 14 clubs.
I personally don't think it should be ringfenced at all, but if other opinions think it should be then at least do it right.
It does look and feel like Sarries are dictators.
How and where does it look and feel like that.
Are they driving The Championship sides with their ring fencing too ??
The entire thing is being driven for a team that broke the salary cap rules to return before it can happen.
The Championship clubs have had their funding slashed, they are being bullied into a corner financially.
It's where certain owners always wanted to be, which is a closed shop of ugly franchised clubs playing anywhere where there is a fee to be had.
That’s your opinion, what I’m asking for is proof.
Or is it just in reality that the pandemic has accelerated a course of events that was always going to happen anyway.
I’m interested in what you’ve seen to make you feel this, because to date I’ve seen no proof of it.
All I’ve seen for a number of seasons, is clubs operating outside their means, I.e. losing money season on season, and unless dramatic action is taken clubs will go out of business

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