Ringfencing NOW upon us ?

Forum to discuss everything that is Tigers related

Moderators: Tigerbeat, Rizzo, Tigers Press Office, Tigers Webmaster

Post Reply
Tigerbeat
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 7250
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:14 pm
Location: The big wide world

Re: Ringfencing NOW upon us ?

Post by Tigerbeat »

From my understanding, the Football Clubs want to stay in the domestic leagues and withdraw from the Champions League to play a Super League - sheer greed. The stance that FIFA, UEFA, FA and other parties have taken is correct in not allowing them to play in Domestic competitions etc.
I cannot see this happening in Rugby as the finance / reward is not there and Clubs are generally just trying to keep their heads above water in most cases.
SUPPORT THE MATT HAMPSON TRUST
www.matthampson.co.uk
mol2
Super User
Super User
Posts: 4581
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:48 pm
Location: Cosby

Re: Ringfencing NOW upon us ?

Post by mol2 »

If the Championship is so poor how come over relatively recent times the likes of Exeter, Worcester and Bristol have come up and established themselves?

OK Bristol were a side who were in the Premiership but spent a long time in the championship.

I can understand the impact of Covid affecting income and that a temporary hold on relegation is justifiable but in the long run, no.

No side has a devine right to remain in the top tier. Just because, at this level rugby is professional, it does not justify holding back those with ambitions to take their place. Every now and again a championship side will have the ambition and the backing to step up. Why should any poorly performing side in the Premiership have a devine right to stay in the top tier? Yes jobs and clubs are on the line, that's the reality of professional sport. However those jobs are not just at the relegated side, they are also the ones that won't be created by the promoted side.

Professional sport has to be a meritocracy if it is to justify the the term championship. If not it's just theatre.
I doubt many of us want to watch exhibition matches, which is what many of the games would become, with some teams maximising profit over success and players only really balancing pay against international call ups.
Old Hob
Super User
Super User
Posts: 4111
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2010 3:15 pm

Re: Ringfencing NOW upon us ?

Post by Old Hob »

I think many posters have nearly hit the nail. If broadcasters won't buy it, it won't happen. Current salary levels are unsustainable without their money. Same for this footy thing. Presumably they have the nod from the Tv people.
Omnia dicta fortiora si dicta Latina
CrumblingTerrace
Bronze Member
Bronze Member
Posts: 470
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:22 pm

Re: Ringfencing NOW upon us ?

Post by CrumblingTerrace »

The ring-fencings of the European Super League and the Gallagher Prem come from different places.

For the ESL it's about growth: securing extremely lucrative TV deals and guaranteeing that income every year.

For the GP it's about survival: stabilising financially as costs have risen, income has all but disappeared and all the clubs run at a loss.

However, I do ponder what exactly it is we're sustaining by ring-fencing. Rather than challenging the structures of the domestic game that have contributed to an unsustainable project, Prem Rugby have decided that the project is more important than competitive rugby.
ourla
Super User
Super User
Posts: 4019
Joined: Tue Jun 04, 2013 3:03 pm

Re: Ringfencing NOW upon us ?

Post by ourla »

Good posts mol2 and CrumblingTerrace

Interestingly 8 of the 12 Prem Clubs have been in the Championship and most more than once. And you could argue it either makes you stronger or you simply weren't strong enough. And yes, that is what sport is all about. The argument for ring fencing is all about stability - expecting owners to support stadium refurbs/rebuilds, academies, etc. when they could have a bad season and end up in the Championship. But I guess the counter is that given all your infrastructure and experience you should be able to bounce straight back up again.

If Saracens and Ealing come into create a 14-team Prem then how will then effect the Championship. And I struggle to see them go back from 13/14 to 12 in the Prem so the Championship is naturally weakened. And I do think some of these dilemmas are down to not beefing up the Championship and getting it more exposure.
Traveller
Silver Member
Silver Member
Posts: 741
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:46 pm

Re: Ringfencing NOW upon us ?

Post by Traveller »

CrumblingTerrace wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:30 am The ring-fencings of the European Super League and the Gallagher Prem come from different places.

For the ESL it's about growth: securing extremely lucrative TV deals and guaranteeing that income every year.

For the GP it's about survival: stabilising financially as costs have risen, income has all but disappeared and all the clubs run at a loss.

However, I do ponder what exactly it is we're sustaining by ring-fencing. Rather than challenging the structures of the domestic game that have contributed to an unsustainable project, Prem Rugby have decided that the project is more important than competitive rugby.
'However, I do ponder what exactly it is we're sustaining by ring-fencing. Rather than challenging the structures of the domestic game that have contributed to an unsustainable project.................'

Agreed 100%. I think that is a very sharp observation and hits the proverbial on the proverbial. Structure is the function of purpose, and the overall purpose isn't at all clear at present.
BFG
Super User
Super User
Posts: 3347
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 11:19 pm

Re: Ringfencing NOW upon us ?

Post by BFG »

We've often been having similar moral discussions about the 6N and this tier 1 and tier 2 malarkey.
Look at what happened to Lichfield in women's rugby.
The Pro14 or whatever it is now... :smt017
Cardiff Tig
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1390
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:25 pm

Re: Ringfencing NOW upon us ?

Post by Cardiff Tig »

ourla wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:58 am Good posts mol2 and CrumblingTerrace

Interestingly 8 of the 12 Prem Clubs have been in the Championship and most more than once. And you could argue it either makes you stronger or you simply weren't strong enough. And yes, that is what sport is all about. The argument for ring fencing is all about stability - expecting owners to support stadium refurbs/rebuilds, academies, etc. when they could have a bad season and end up in the Championship. But I guess the counter is that given all your infrastructure and experience you should be able to bounce straight back up again.

If Saracens and Ealing come into create a 14-team Prem then how will then effect the Championship. And I struggle to see them go back from 13/14 to 12 in the Prem so the Championship is naturally weakened. And I do think some of these dilemmas are down to not beefing up the Championship and getting it more exposure.
Is the more telling statistic that of the Championship teams, only Sarries have been in the Premiership in the last 20 or so years.
mol2
Super User
Super User
Posts: 4581
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:48 pm
Location: Cosby

Re: Ringfencing NOW upon us ?

Post by mol2 »

Your comments about the apparent lack of effort to improve the championship is an ongoing issue.

Rugby in England overall would benefit from a stronger championship. However the Premiership teams may not feel quite the same. Do they want a high standard in the next tier down, which migh mean that the case for promotion and relegation becomes even stronger and a far easier task for those who go up to stay up and perhaps harder for elegated sides to bounce back with ease? A scary thought for those near the bottom of the Premiership. How many of us were a bit relieved when Sarries penalty took themn down? Would Tigers have waited so long for Borthwick?

What matters most? A handful of big clubs, International rugby or the grassroots game?

In the end they are interlinked but some are more effective about claiming their own importance. The first 2 are probably more important to TV (as I doubt Vipers 2nd 15 matches will draw much from the advertisers) but are they any more important to the players on the pitch?
BrightonTiger
Top Cat
Top Cat
Posts: 51
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:58 pm

Re: Ringfencing NOW upon us ?

Post by BrightonTiger »

How does relegation/promotion help the championship clubs?

Every year since 2011 the team relegated from the Premiership bounced straight back up the following year, except London Welsh in 2014 - 15.

The relegated team has a massively unfair advantage over the rest of the Championship with parachute payments and quality of squad.
TigerBoy1880
Silver Member
Silver Member
Posts: 638
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:04 pm

Re: Ringfencing NOW upon us ?

Post by TigerBoy1880 »

BrightonTiger wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:44 pm How does relegation/promotion help the championship clubs?

Every year since 2011 the team relegated from the Premiership bounced straight back up the following year, except London Welsh in 2014 - 15.

The relegated team has a massively unfair advantage over the rest of the Championship with parachute payments and quality of squad.
They get to play a team of a higher standard to see what they need to aim for to achieve Premiership status.
CrumblingTerrace
Bronze Member
Bronze Member
Posts: 470
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:22 pm

Re: Ringfencing NOW upon us ?

Post by CrumblingTerrace »

It's interesting that some of the Euro Super League coverage I've heard over the past couple of days has involved genuine introspection from those close to the game... did we facilitate this by indulging in the bloated transfer fees, mammoth TV deals and investment from oligarchs, deposed prime ministers and money launderers?

Will we have a similar moment in rugby? Will we look back on CVC's investment as the moment the game outside of the Premiership started withering on the vine?
ourla
Super User
Super User
Posts: 4019
Joined: Tue Jun 04, 2013 3:03 pm

Re: Ringfencing NOW upon us ?

Post by ourla »

Cardiff Tig wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:23 amIs the more telling statistic that of the Championship teams, only Sarries have been in the Premiership in the last 20 or so years.
It's certainly another way of looking at it. Of course some have fallen below the Championship like Rotherham and London Welsh.

But isn't the question of whether Doncaster or Pirates for example might be able to compete with say Worcester or Newcastle. And if so, why can't they be given that opportunity.
ourla
Super User
Super User
Posts: 4019
Joined: Tue Jun 04, 2013 3:03 pm

Re: Ringfencing NOW upon us ?

Post by ourla »

BrightonTiger wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:44 pm How does relegation/promotion help the championship clubs?

Every year since 2011 the team relegated from the Premiership bounced straight back up the following year, except London Welsh in 2014 - 15.

The relegated team has a massively unfair advantage over the rest of the Championship with parachute payments and quality of squad.
As someone else pointed out Bristol went down in 2008/9 and didn't return until 2016/17. Others have been down a couple of times (Newcastle and Worcester).

I think in any sport at any level the team going down has a high percentage of going up. If they helped boost the Championship more they could improve the competitiveness (perhaps). Either way, I'm not sure it's argument defining.
johnthegriff
Super User
Super User
Posts: 2013
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 12:37 am

Re: Ringfencing NOW upon us ?

Post by johnthegriff »

Promotion and relegation are not about what has happened in the past even the recent past, it is about what could happen in the future. It is about the right to dream that owners and fans of Cornish Pirates, Ealing Trailfinders, Plymouth, Darlington Mowden Park, Bury St Edmunds or any other Rugby club may have that one day their team might join the elite of the Premiership. They may know it is not very likely but once Exeter and Worcester had those dreams, other like London Welsh, Rotherham and Leeds had similar dreams and ambitions, that they did not work out so far is a matter of history the reasons vary but they had their chance. Other teams should have similar opportunities available to them. The way forward is to find a way to fund adequately at least a second tier with TV coverage sponsorship and RFU support it should not be impossible, failure to do so will mean that our sport will gradually cease to exist.
Post Reply