Ringfencing almost upon us ?

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BFG
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by BFG » Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:04 am

Mark62 wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:37 am
BFG wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:32 am
teds wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:26 pm


BFG I think I agree with all of this but could you perhaps expand on what you mean by “changing referring habits”?
Taking too long to complete scrums and line outs.
Remove the TMO or at least change how it's being used as decisions are still questionable with it and take far too long.
Police the offside and breakdown strictly, two main areas that are and have always been targets for the cynical slowing of attacking play.
Promote attacking time and space.
You used to get foot rucked if you got caught out cynically slowing attacking ball at the breakdown, with self policing gone it requires the ref to police it strictly.
By strictly or properly I mean use the yellow card immediately.
Not saying you’re incorrect but that has nothing to do with ring fencing, or financial effects on club.
It has a lot to do with ringfencing because some are claiming that removing the fear of relegation will promote attacking play.
Like ringfencing is some sort of mental switch that the coaches and players need to flourish in attack which is absolute nonsense.

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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by Tigerbeat » Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:08 am

Ring fencing will protect the existence of teams. A team being relegated would have financial commitments upon them with regards to players contracts and they need revenue to exist. In the Championship they would not generate the levels of revenue required, and Covid has eaten into any reserves that clubs may have had previously.
Also there are very few clubs which have the facilities, business structure, or finances to be promoted....I may be wrong.
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Mark62
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by Mark62 » Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:12 am

BFG wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:04 am
Mark62 wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:37 am
BFG wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:32 am


Taking too long to complete scrums and line outs.
Remove the TMO or at least change how it's being used as decisions are still questionable with it and take far too long.
Police the offside and breakdown strictly, two main areas that are and have always been targets for the cynical slowing of attacking play.
Promote attacking time and space.
You used to get foot rucked if you got caught out cynically slowing attacking ball at the breakdown, with self policing gone it requires the ref to police it strictly.
By strictly or properly I mean use the yellow card immediately.
Not saying you’re incorrect but that has nothing to do with ring fencing, or financial effects on club.
It has a lot to do with ringfencing because some are claiming that removing the fear of relegation will promote attacking play.
Like ringfencing is some sort of mental switch that the coaches and players need to flourish in attack which is absolute nonsense.
Whatever :smt017

Mark62
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by Mark62 » Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:13 am

Tigerbeat wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:08 am
Ring fencing will protect the existence of teams. A team being relegated would have financial commitments upon them with regards to players contracts and they need revenue to exist. In the Championship they would not generate the levels of revenue required, and Covid has eaten into any reserves that clubs may have had previously.
Also there are very few clubs which have the facilities, business structure, or finances to be promoted....I may be wrong.
No you’re absolutely spot on, but try telling some of the Crumbie stand dwellers on here that.

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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by jgriffin » Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:40 am

Lazy stereotyping Mark. You'd be surprised how many would support a period of ring fencing. We're not all crusties, not even those as chronologically old as me.
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by Mark62 » Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:44 am

jgriffin wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:40 am
Lazy stereotyping Mark. You'd be surprised how many would support a period of ring fencing. We're not all crusties, not even those as chronologically old as me.
Note the use of the word SOME !!!

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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by BFG » Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:58 am

Tigerbeat wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:08 am
Ring fencing will protect the existence of teams. A team being relegated would have financial commitments upon them with regards to players contracts and they need revenue to exist. In the Championship they would not generate the levels of revenue required, and Covid has eaten into any reserves that clubs may have had previously.
Also there are very few clubs which have the facilities, business structure, or finances to be promoted....I may be wrong.
It's an interesting debate around relegated clubs.
We'll never know for sure if relegated sides like Quins and Saints would've made the changes required to staff to then go on and win the Premiership.
Maybe if ringfencing is in place then to the teams finishing in last it might be an excuse to continue to be not very good.
It's into the unknown.
I understand the financial implications of Covid but losses were being incurred with the salary cap much too high before the pandemic arrived.

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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by Tigerbeat » Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:00 pm

BFG wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:58 am
Tigerbeat wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:08 am
Ring fencing will protect the existence of teams. A team being relegated would have financial commitments upon them with regards to players contracts and they need revenue to exist. In the Championship they would not generate the levels of revenue required, and Covid has eaten into any reserves that clubs may have had previously.
Also there are very few clubs which have the facilities, business structure, or finances to be promoted....I may be wrong.
It's an interesting debate around relegated clubs.
We'll never know for sure if relegated sides like Quins and Saints would've made the changes required to staff to then go on and win the Premiership.
Maybe if ringfencing is in place teams then finishing in last might be an excuse to continue to be not very good.
It's into the unknown.
I understand the financial implications of Covid but losses were being incurred with the salary cap much too high before the pandemic arrived.
I believe that this pandemic has crippled some clubs and they are really struggling with their finances. Only time will tell but ringfencing will protect the current clubs, who have a better chance of survival.
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by johnthegriff » Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:09 pm

I completely understand the point that Mark62 is trying to make in his support of ringfencing. My concern is that once a team knows that they are in a situation where they have no chance of play-offs or a European place then without relegation the rest of the season holds no challenge for them and match intensity will diminish with team selection being reflected in that. Some say without fear of relegation coaches will more freely select young players, they may be right, but that has been done in L.V and Premier Cup matches with reduced crowds, quite recently in an away Europeans Champions Cup game in Castre when we knew we had no chance of progressing in the competition team selection was somewhat below perceived first team level, personally I was not disapointed as that was what I expected but there was genuine anger from many who attended some demanding compensation from the club. Similar views were expressed by several fans arriving in Cardiff last Autumn on finding that the team was definitely squad based, the fact that the team put out performed magnificently and a Hardwick late penalty clinched a win mitigated some of the anger, but many said they would not travel again or bother going to Welford Road if Tigers were not serious about winning matches.
In essence I agree with Tigerbeat, revenue does drop dramatically if a team is relegated consequently a team going down has to adjust to life in the lower level, he is right that there are few clubs with the finances, facilities or business structure to be promoted and if there is no chance of promotion there will be none. Over the years since the start of the Premiership and later the advent of professionalism there have been winners and losers, I thought that was what sport was about. If ringfencing comes in even for a short time experiment, it will be here to stay as to reverse it will mean a couple of turkeys voting for Christmas.
I am a proud Crumbie dweller and take no offence at Mark62's reference or my near namesakes "Crustie" comment. It is good that we can have the debate without falling out whilst we are all waiting for rugby to restart.

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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by BFG » Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:19 pm

Tigerbeat wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:00 pm
BFG wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:58 am
Tigerbeat wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:08 am
Ring fencing will protect the existence of teams. A team being relegated would have financial commitments upon them with regards to players contracts and they need revenue to exist. In the Championship they would not generate the levels of revenue required, and Covid has eaten into any reserves that clubs may have had previously.
Also there are very few clubs which have the facilities, business structure, or finances to be promoted....I may be wrong.
It's an interesting debate around relegated clubs.
We'll never know for sure if relegated sides like Quins and Saints would've made the changes required to staff to then go on and win the Premiership.
Maybe if ringfencing is in place teams then finishing in last might be an excuse to continue to be not very good.
It's into the unknown.
I understand the financial implications of Covid but losses were being incurred with the salary cap much too high before the pandemic arrived.
I believe that this pandemic has crippled some clubs and they are really struggling with their finances. Only time will tell but ringfencing will protect the current clubs, who have a better chance of survival.
Understood.
Though it is protecting something that was already unstable.
Wasps for example.
We don't really want them to go as someone to play is needed but it's sad that ultimately the entire sport is dictated to by the state of clubs that in my opinion were silly set ups from the start.

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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by Mark62 » Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:22 pm

Like all things it’s splits opinions which as JTG says is a good thing, otherwise how can we have a debate.

Reading and taking note of people’s posts, I think there are 3 things we agree on.

1- The problem was caused initially by salaries rising too high, and the introduction of private money into some clubs, meaning unsustainable marquee salaries.
2- The situation the game currently finds itself in was going to happen anyway, the pandemic has just accelerated matters.
3- Leicester has been affected at least as bad as other clubs, due to the lack of a private owner, and the sheer size of our fan base, means our loss of match day revenue is far greater.

As a slight aside I was listening to some cricket commentary, where it was noted that some of the smaller counties, Leicestershire was mentioned, will compete much better this summer, due to centrally contracted England players being in the bubble, and also there being no expensive overseas players at some counties

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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by Cardiff Tig » Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:29 pm

I'm not opposed to ring fencing, mainly because the Championship isn't fit for purpose. The days of an Exeter appearing and challenging the established clubs have long gone - Ealing haven't even challenged Newcastle this season and have zero chance challenging Sarries next season. Plus there are actually hardly clubs that want the exposure of trying to make it in the premiership.

Ring fence for 3 seasons with 13 teams, then review the current teams and Championship clubs to see if any changes are needed.

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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by Mark62 » Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:37 pm

Cardiff Tig wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:29 pm
I'm not opposed to ring fencing, mainly because the Championship isn't fit for purpose. The days of an Exeter appearing and challenging the established clubs have long gone - Ealing haven't even challenged Newcastle this season and have zero chance challenging Sarries next season. Plus there are actually hardly clubs that want the exposure of trying to make it in the premiership.

Ring fence for 3 seasons with 13 teams, then review the current teams and Championship clubs to see if any changes are needed.
Last sentence is my feelings precisely.
This will then have a knock on effect down through the leagues.

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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by BFG » Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:49 pm

Cardiff Tig wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:29 pm
I'm not opposed to ring fencing, mainly because the Championship isn't fit for purpose. The days of an Exeter appearing and challenging the established clubs have long gone - Ealing haven't even challenged Newcastle this season and have zero chance challenging Sarries next season. Plus there are actually hardly clubs that want the exposure of trying to make it in the premiership.

Ring fence for 3 seasons with 13 teams, then review the current teams and Championship clubs to see if any changes are needed.
I was speaking to Rams supporter who was looking forward to being rid of London Irish from Reading.
It's a club with the ambition to build from the bottom up reaching out to a community of over one million people.
This is what rugby is about for me.
Not plastic clubs.

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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by JP14 » Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:15 pm

Ealing's only chance is if Newcastle go under, but does rugby really need another London club in the Prem?
"Our Greatest Glory Is Not In Never Failing, But In Rising Every Time We Fall" Confucius

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