Ringfencing almost upon us ?

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Mark62
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by Mark62 » Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:37 pm

johnthegriff wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:22 pm
Mark 62 wants those that disagree with his view of ringfencing to provide proof that he is wrong, where is his proof that he is right. He says that without relegation teams will find it easier to introduce young players, that will only apply when a team has decided first that they have no chance of play-offs and second when they have no chance of Champions Cup, it will mean that towards the end of a season those qualifications can be affected when with two teams vying for qualification one plays another team in the mix for honoors and the other a team fielding several youngsters as the result of the game is irrelevant to them.
The Championships proposal for 6 Regional Talent Centres and an end to Academies will be harmful and I think will reduce numbers coming into the game with a view to a possible career.
Mark 62 is right when he suggests that things cannot stay the same, but change has happened, most clubs were not losing money in a big way five years ago, Leicester were breaking even over the professional era despite investing heavily in our ground and improvements, as did Northampton, Gloucester and other but, increasing the salary cap dramatically and adding two marquee players created a burden that non sugardaddy clubs could not manage. Recent changes have hopefully brought about a realism and a change back to simple business principles where money out has to match closely money in. Of course above all the product has to be something that your customer actually wants, I am not sure that less competitive matches are the answer.
I still see this less competitive matches being banded around, it’s like supporters are expecting coaches to select sides saying it doesn’t matter if we loose this week guys, because the fans realise a few matches are going to be uncompetitive so who gives a :censored:.
Also professional rugby players aren’t going to go out and expect to get a stuffing, that’s the old days of non league rugby where historical fixtures were kept against stronger clubs. Those that aren’t automatic first choice will be trying their hearts out to get a starting spot.
The championship proposal is a different kettle of fish.
I agree that 5 years ago clubs weren’t losing so much 5 years ago, but those 5 years have passed the salaries have gone out of control, one of the reasons supporters demanding to see big names at their clubs. The salary cap amendments will help with that, but this needs time to implement.
I agree that there is nothing to say ring fencing will work, but interestingly not by the clubs, just by spectators with their theories of uncompetitive matches, and scaremongering of take overs by rich businesses men. If people looked at results there have been uncompetitive fixtures since the year dot, and as long as your club was on the right side of the result no body gave a stuff.
IMO a 3 year ring fence before returning to promotion and relegation will mean clubs will return with a stronger base and salaries under control.
Finally yes play the 6 nations over 5 weekends, don’t play league fixtures over those 5 weekends, but where are you finding the extra weeks to complete your 28 weeks of fixtures plus Europe, by my reckoning, without knock out Europe fixtures and play offs, which potentially add another 5 weeks, you are then looking at a 39 week season.

BFG
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by BFG » Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:03 pm

I don't think anyone is scared of take overs by rich businessmen but just wary of rich businessmen who want to either change or won't play by the rules taking over, and with good reason.
Five years of scaremongering that someone was cheating did indeed turn out to be true.
It's not a coincidence in my opinion that just when Leicester start sorting out their academy and aquiring a top group of coaches that a former executive of a competitor recommends changing the system to cherry pick it.

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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by Mark62 » Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:13 pm

BFG wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:03 pm
I don't think anyone is scared of take overs by rich businessmen but just wary of rich businessmen who want to either change or won't play by the rules taking over, and with good reason.
Five years of scaremongering that someone was cheating did indeed turn out to be true.
It's not a coincidence in my opinion that just when Leicester start sorting out their academy and aquiring a top group of coaches that a former executive of a competitor recommends changing the system to cherry pick it.
Sounds like good old fashioned paranoia to me but of course I get why people may think that, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion

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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by BFG » Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:40 pm

Mark62 wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:13 pm
BFG wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:03 pm
I don't think anyone is scared of take overs by rich businessmen but just wary of rich businessmen who want to either change or won't play by the rules taking over, and with good reason.
Five years of scaremongering that someone was cheating did indeed turn out to be true.
It's not a coincidence in my opinion that just when Leicester start sorting out their academy and aquiring a top group of coaches that a former executive of a competitor recommends changing the system to cherry pick it.
Sounds like good old fashioned paranoia to me but of course I get why people may think that, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion
Sounds like a good old fashioned South mathematician to me! :smt003

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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by johnthegriff » Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:35 pm

The salary cap amendments have been implemented at Leicester and probably other clubs already, the result is fewer players on wages far in excess of the rest of the squad and what appears to be greater depth and a mix of more Premiership quality players and promising youngsters in their early 20's allowing for rotation without greatly diminishing the strength of the team.
We currently play 22 league games, 6 European plus 3 if we make the Finals and possibly 2 Premiership play-offs. Then of course there is the five 6 Nations matches and three Autumn Internationals. All to be completed before the England players depart on summer tour. Of course if we play no league matches on an international weekend then the excuse for the play-offs is removed, although of course they are a money spinner and it is a good day out. I believe that England players are limited to 31 games a season and there has to be an 11 week gap between the final game of the summer tour and the first competitive match of the following season.
It is a difficult situation, some problems are solved by injuries reducing the number of matches a player takes part in, large squads of quality players are essential, but I see no way in which ringfencing is helpful. The fact that wealthy people have invested in the past to me provides proof that investment is out there without introducing a closed shop, and with the possibility of promotion from the Championship it is more likely that investors will be attracted to those clubs thereby improving the quality of our second tier. We have to get money into the game at that level by adding T.V contracts and sponsorship so that relegation whilst to be avoided is not a complete disaster and possibly there will be more teams like Exeter and Worcester and possibly Bristol who survived several seasons of Championship before regaining their place at the top level.

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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by Mark62 » Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:58 pm

johnthegriff wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:35 pm
The salary cap amendments have been implemented at Leicester and probably other clubs already, the result is fewer players on wages far in excess of the rest of the squad and what appears to be greater depth and a mix of more Premiership quality players and promising youngsters in their early 20's allowing for rotation without greatly diminishing the strength of the team.
We currently play 22 league games, 6 European plus 3 if we make the Finals and possibly 2 Premiership play-offs. Then of course there is the five 6 Nations matches and three Autumn Internationals. All to be completed before the England players depart on summer tour. Of course if we play no league matches on an international weekend then the excuse for the play-offs is removed, although of course they are a money spinner and it is a good day out. I believe that England players are limited to 31 games a season and there has to be an 11 week gap between the final game of the summer tour and the first competitive match of the following season.
It is a difficult situation, some problems are solved by injuries reducing the number of matches a player takes part in, large squads of quality players are essential, but I see no way in which ringfencing is helpful. The fact that wealthy people have invested in the past to me provides proof that investment is out there without introducing a closed shop, and with the possibility of promotion from the Championship it is more likely that investors will be attracted to those clubs thereby improving the quality of our second tier. We have to get money into the game at that level by adding T.V contracts and sponsorship so that relegation whilst to be avoided is not a complete disaster and possibly there will be more teams like Exeter and Worcester and possibly Bristol who survived several seasons of Championship before regaining their place at the top level.
That is your opinion and of course you are more than entitled to it.
If you cannot see the reason why someone won’t invest in a product, where the only effect their money will have is to help the clubs ailing finances, due to less required for salaries and marquee players recruitment disappearing, then nothing I say will convince you.
Throughout a championship season there are probably half a dozen games, where it is worth Sky, or whatever broadcaster covers it, to actually show the game, they are after all a business. The advertisers are hardly going to be clamouring for a half time spot on the Amphill/Bedford derby game.
Any thought that at the present time people will invest in a 2nd tier product, other than cherry picking games is pure folly in my opinion.
Anyway I’ve had my say, I would much prefer us to continue with a league where relegation and promotion occur, but would rather see a 3 year hiatus, than clubs go out of business.
Until someone comes up with a concrete proposal to achieve the above, and I mean a little more than find some money from somewhere, or stop paying the players do much, I firmly believe that the only way we will see 13 premiership and 13 championship clubs at the start of the 24/25 season is ring fencing.

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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by JP14 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:00 am

BFG wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:03 pm
I don't think anyone is scared of take overs by rich businessmen but just wary of rich businessmen who want to either change or won't play by the rules taking over, and with good reason.
Five years of scaremongering that someone was cheating did indeed turn out to be true.
It's not a coincidence in my opinion that just when Leicester start sorting out their academy and aquiring a top group of coaches that a former executive of a competitor recommends changing the system to cherry pick it.
:smt024 :smt024
"Our Greatest Glory Is Not In Never Failing, But In Rising Every Time We Fall" Confucius

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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by johnthegriff » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:42 am

Sky and other broadcasters give T.V time to many minority sports, Netball, Curling, Bowls, Hockey, fishing and many others, so I see no reason why they would not have a regular Championship slot. I think that Ed Griffiths has planned something like that in his proposal, just about the only part of his deal that I liked.
The reduction in wages has actually happened, that is why we had five players leave, others have accepted reduced amounts so our club if we can return to previous levels of income should be more viable.
There is a long history in Rugby and Football of wealthy people investing in clubs with no expectation of a return, some will be content with break even or a small loss a few seem to be happy with writing off millions

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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by Mark62 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:48 am

johnthegriff wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:42 am
Sky and other broadcasters give T.V time to many minority sports, Netball, Curling, Bowls, Hockey, fishing and many others, so I see no reason why they would not have a regular Championship slot. I think that Ed Griffiths has planned something like that in his proposal, just about the only part of his deal that I liked.
The reduction in wages has actually happened, that is why we had five players leave, others have accepted reduced amounts so our club if we can return to previous levels of income should be more viable.
There is a long history in Rugby and Football of wealthy people investing in clubs with no expectation of a return, some will be content with break even or a small loss a few seem to be happy with writing off millions
As I’ve said that’s your opinion, and I think no matter what I put you will be able to find some sort of counter argument, and frankly I’ve got better things to do as I’m sure you have.
It’s just a shame that you are obviously so opposed to ring fencing, if it happens, that I can’t imagine you wanting to attend any games in person, once spectators are allowed, and therefore are unlikely to be organising any more of, what I’m told, your excellent away supporters trips.

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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by johnthegriff » Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:31 pm

Not only would I not be organising away travel, I would think very seriously about whether to continue with my season ticket, my feelings at the moment are that I would discontinue it but I have not made a final decision.
I note from a recent report that in the ring fenced Pro 14 all the Irish Clubs (Provinces) average much lower attendance figures for league matches than they do for more meaningful European games, in the case of Leinster and Munster about 50% lower whilst in the Premiership generally the reverse is true with greater crowds at Premiership matches, the exceptions being Sale and Saracens who record slightly higher attendance for European matches although in both cases their average gate is well under 10K for all games.
French clubs where relegation exists also seem to prefer League matches to European, probably the European attendance is influenced by whether your team is competing in the Champions Cup or the Challenge Trophy, I certainly noticed a drop in numbers travelling to away European games this year and on the visit to Cardiff as on other occasions when selection has been more of a squad or young player nature rather than what would be considered first choice many have said they would not have come if they had known of the selection policy before booking.

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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by ay2oh » Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:50 pm

I can’t envisage anything that would make me give up my season ticket and certainly not ring fencing and can not understand why this would make people give up their season tickets. IMO there are advantages and disadvantages to ring fencing, the advantage being the opportunity to blood young players when there is less pressure and the disadvantage being the possibility of meaningless matches towards the end of the season. At the end of the day there is still matches to watch and that s what I pay my money for.
A2O

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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by BFG » Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:16 pm

The idea that ringfencing alone is the opportunity required to make the game better or more attractive is a misconception.
You're still going to get the same type of overly large average skilled players (in particular up front) coming through if what is going on underneath promotes this.
They select for the future from teenage teams that are still built to compete at 15/16 and then from them at 17/18 and all young lads just aren't fully developed by then.
The smaller skilled players that get a chance as youngsters are mostly connected players or exceptionally gifted young backs.
The bottom up is the way to make the game better in my opinion.
The only way you can affect it from the top down is to drastically change refereeing habits.
Talk of speeding the game up and reducing subs could do this, it would need to be a big change and would catch out some of the current crop who just aren't suited to playing fast rugby.

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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by teds » Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:26 pm

BFG wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:16 pm
The idea that ringfencing alone is the opportunity required to make the game better or more attractive is a misconception.
You're still going to get the same type of overly large average skilled players (in particular up front) coming through if what is going on underneath promotes this.
They select for the future from teenage teams that are still built to compete at 15/16 and then from them at 17/18 and all young lads just aren't fully developed by then.
The smaller skilled players that get a chance as youngsters are mostly connected players or exceptionally gifted young backs.
The bottom up is the way to make the game better in my opinion.
The only way you can affect it from the top down is to drastically change refereeing habits.
Talk of speeding the game up and reducing subs could do this, it would need to be a big change and would catch out some of the current crop who just aren't suited to playing fast rugby.
BFG I think I agree with all of this but could you perhaps expand on what you mean by “changing referring habits”?

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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by BFG » Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:32 am

teds wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:26 pm
BFG wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:16 pm
The idea that ringfencing alone is the opportunity required to make the game better or more attractive is a misconception.
You're still going to get the same type of overly large average skilled players (in particular up front) coming through if what is going on underneath promotes this.
They select for the future from teenage teams that are still built to compete at 15/16 and then from them at 17/18 and all young lads just aren't fully developed by then.
The smaller skilled players that get a chance as youngsters are mostly connected players or exceptionally gifted young backs.
The bottom up is the way to make the game better in my opinion.
The only way you can affect it from the top down is to drastically change refereeing habits.
Talk of speeding the game up and reducing subs could do this, it would need to be a big change and would catch out some of the current crop who just aren't suited to playing fast rugby.
BFG I think I agree with all of this but could you perhaps expand on what you mean by “changing referring habits”?
Taking too long to complete scrums and line outs.
Remove the TMO or at least change how it's being used as decisions are still questionable with it and take far too long.
Police the offside and breakdown strictly, two main areas that are and have always been targets for the cynical slowing of attacking play.
Promote attacking time and space.
You used to get foot rucked if you got caught out cynically slowing attacking ball at the breakdown, with self policing gone it requires the ref to police it strictly.
By strictly or properly I mean use the yellow card immediately.
Last edited by BFG on Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:59 am, edited 3 times in total.

Mark62
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by Mark62 » Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:37 am

BFG wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:32 am
teds wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:26 pm
BFG wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:16 pm
The idea that ringfencing alone is the opportunity required to make the game better or more attractive is a misconception.
You're still going to get the same type of overly large average skilled players (in particular up front) coming through if what is going on underneath promotes this.
They select for the future from teenage teams that are still built to compete at 15/16 and then from them at 17/18 and all young lads just aren't fully developed by then.
The smaller skilled players that get a chance as youngsters are mostly connected players or exceptionally gifted young backs.
The bottom up is the way to make the game better in my opinion.
The only way you can affect it from the top down is to drastically change refereeing habits.
Talk of speeding the game up and reducing subs could do this, it would need to be a big change and would catch out some of the current crop who just aren't suited to playing fast rugby.
BFG I think I agree with all of this but could you perhaps expand on what you mean by “changing referring habits”?
Taking too long to complete scrums and line outs.
Remove the TMO or at least change how it's being used as decisions are still questionable with it and take far too long.
Police the offside and breakdown strictly, two main areas that are and have always been targets for the cynical slowing of attacking play.
Promote attacking time and space.
You used to get foot rucked if you got caught out cynically slowing attacking ball at the breakdown, with self policing gone it requires the ref to police it strictly.
By strictly or properly I mean use the yellow card immediately.
Not saying you’re incorrect but that has nothing to do with ring fencing, or financial effects on club.

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