Ringfencing almost upon us ?

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BFG
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by BFG » Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:11 am

Mark62 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:58 am
BFG wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:50 am
Mark62 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:40 am


How and where does it look and feel like that.
Are they driving The Championship sides with their ring fencing too ??
The entire thing is being driven for a team that broke the salary cap rules to return before it can happen.
The Championship clubs have had their funding slashed, they are being bullied into a corner financially.
It's where certain owners always wanted to be, which is a closed shop of ugly franchised clubs playing anywhere where there is a fee to be had.
That’s your opinion, what I’m asking for is proof.
Or is it just in reality that the pandemic has accelerated a course of events that was always going to happen anyway.
I’m interested in what you’ve seen to make you feel this, because to date I’ve seen no proof of it.
All I’ve seen for a number of seasons, is clubs operating outside their means, I.e. losing money season on season, and unless dramatic action is taken clubs will go out of business
Proof of what?
Championship funding was slashed after Sarries were punished and before the pandemic arrived.
You just don't seem to be getting it that clubs were operating outside of their financial means because they raised the salary cap, and it was inflated again by breaching of the salary cap.
Which part of this do you not understand?

Cagey Tiger
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by Cagey Tiger » Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:16 am

BFG wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:09 am
That the league will be closed up for Sarries return is weak.
If anyone believes that it's best then show some bottle and do it now from the start of 20/21 with 12 teams.
13 teams is a stupidly wasted weekend for each club and also an unfair advantage when a club that has had two weeks preparation plays against a team that hasn't.
Disagree with your last point. When the Premiership play-offs were first introduced, the team that finished top went straight to the final, with a week off while the teams that finished 2nd and 3rd had a play-off game that week. It was changed to the current system, in no small part as the having a week off was seen as a disadvantage - loss of momentum etc.

Mark62
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by Mark62 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:20 am

BFG wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:11 am
Mark62 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:58 am
BFG wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:50 am


The entire thing is being driven for a team that broke the salary cap rules to return before it can happen.
The Championship clubs have had their funding slashed, they are being bullied into a corner financially.
It's where certain owners always wanted to be, which is a closed shop of ugly franchised clubs playing anywhere where there is a fee to be had.
That’s your opinion, what I’m asking for is proof.
Or is it just in reality that the pandemic has accelerated a course of events that was always going to happen anyway.
I’m interested in what you’ve seen to make you feel this, because to date I’ve seen no proof of it.
All I’ve seen for a number of seasons, is clubs operating outside their means, I.e. losing money season on season, and unless dramatic action is taken clubs will go out of business
Proof of what?
Championship funding was slashed after Sarries were punished and before the pandemic arrived.
You just don't seem to be getting it that clubs were operating outside of their financial means because they raised the salary cap, and it was inflated again by breaching of the salary cap.
Which part of this do you not understand?
I don’t understand that you don’t get that this is a far bigger issue than the salary cap, and that pinning it all on Sarries is the easy option.
And that your argument falls down because the salary cap is being reduced and marquee players being reduced to 0.
Championship funding was reduced to the fact that the RFU lost over £100 million quid.

This is a lot deeper than you are indicating and thinking you can shout louder and stamp you foot harder than everyone else isn’t going to change that.

teds
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by teds » Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:26 pm

Mark62 wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:27 pm
teds wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:20 pm
Mark62 wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:39 pm


Going to slightly disagree with you here, ring fencing will potentially make careers longer, less pressure to play when injured, and enable clubs to integrate younger players again without the extreme pressure of having to win every game.
This has nothing to do with chasing money, far more to do with clubs existing within their means, without the need for sugar daddys who will disappear at thee drop of a hat.
You possibly haven’t seen the news about the Tigers losing £5 million in revenue and this increasing weekly.
Sorry Mark62, I think Nasher hit the nail on the head. The last thing we need in the sport is to increase dependence on sugar daddies. Ring fencing will just encourage them to gamble more and frankly they need to be discouraged.
Sorry Teds but if you read what I’ve put I actually say that this will help clubs exist within their means, without the need for sugar daddys.
How that can be construed as wanting more sugar daddy’s I’m not sure.
Honestly Mark62, I did read what you said, I just disagreed with it. I am not saying you want more involvement from sugar daddies, but rather saying that seems the most logical outcome.

Mark62
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by Mark62 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:34 pm

teds wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:26 pm
Mark62 wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:27 pm
teds wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:20 pm


Sorry Mark62, I think Nasher hit the nail on the head. The last thing we need in the sport is to increase dependence on sugar daddies. Ring fencing will just encourage them to gamble more and frankly they need to be discouraged.
Sorry Teds but if you read what I’ve put I actually say that this will help clubs exist within their means, without the need for sugar daddys.
How that can be construed as wanting more sugar daddy’s I’m not sure.
Honestly Mark62, I did read what you said, I just disagreed with it. I am not saying you want more involvement from sugar daddies, but rather saying that seems the most logical outcome.
Surely the removal of marquee players and the reduction in salary cap, means all any wealthy backer will be doing is propping up a loss making business

teds
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by teds » Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:36 pm

Mark62 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:34 pm
teds wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:26 pm
Mark62 wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:27 pm


Sorry Teds but if you read what I’ve put I actually say that this will help clubs exist within their means, without the need for sugar daddys.
How that can be construed as wanting more sugar daddy’s I’m not sure.
Honestly Mark62, I did read what you said, I just disagreed with it. I am not saying you want more involvement from sugar daddies, but rather saying that seems the most logical outcome.
Surely the removal of marquee players and the reduction in salary cap, means all any wealthy backer will be doing is propping up a loss making business
Yes indeed, but my argument would be that ring-fencing is neither necessary nor sufficient to remove marquee players nor reduce salary cap. Once ring-fencing has come in, it will be almost impossible to ever remove it, but the salary cap will be open for renegotiation every few years, if indeed it remains at all.

BFG
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by BFG » Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:25 pm

teds wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:36 pm

Yes indeed, but my argument would be that ring-fencing is neither necessary nor sufficient to remove marquee players nor reduce salary cap. Once ring-fencing has come in, it will be almost impossible to ever remove it, but the salary cap will be open for renegotiation every few years, if indeed it remains at all.
Hit the nail firmly on the head there teds.
They'll do what they like.
Being a sustainable community based club won't matter, actually it could be a sustainable clubs downfall if they become too uncompetitive with the money men.
They do dislike that Leicester is a proper club.

Mark62
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by Mark62 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:41 pm

teds wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:36 pm
Mark62 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:34 pm
teds wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:26 pm


Honestly Mark62, I did read what you said, I just disagreed with it. I am not saying you want more involvement from sugar daddies, but rather saying that seems the most logical outcome.
Surely the removal of marquee players and the reduction in salary cap, means all any wealthy backer will be doing is propping up a loss making business
Yes indeed, but my argument would be that ring-fencing is neither necessary nor sufficient to remove marquee players nor reduce salary cap. Once ring-fencing has come in, it will be almost impossible to ever remove it, but the salary cap will be open for renegotiation every few years, if indeed it remains at all.
So you can’t see the benefit of clubs having 2 or 3 seasons to build up a more sustainable squad, being able to bring more home grown players, without the pressure of relegation, the pressure that wouldn’t be easier if salary restrictions and marquee players aren’t removed.
Fair enough everyone is obviously entitled to their own opinion, but is does amuse me the number of doom sayers on here, who turn into Septic Pegs and are able to predict with absolute certainty what is going to happen in 2 or 3 seasons time.

Shame they couldn’t be so accurate about the Saracens debacle and this :censored: pandemic

Mark62
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by Mark62 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:48 pm

So a question to all forum users, if, as seems likely, a 13 team ring fenced premiership happens from the beginning of the 21/22 season, How many posters who have openly said they hate/dislike ring fencing, will stop following not only Tigers, but The Premiership in general?

ay2oh
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by ay2oh » Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:01 pm

As far as I am concerned your either a supporter or not and it’s irrelevant whether there’s ring-fencing or not. Although I was originally against it there are advantages of being able to use your young players when there is less pressure and let’s face it which teams in the championship have the infrastructure to succeed in the premiership. Save your strongest team for Europe .
A2O

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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by RichieB » Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:25 pm

ay2oh wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:01 pm
As far as I am concerned your either a supporter or not and it’s irrelevant whether there’s ring-fencing or not. Although I was originally against it there are advantages of being able to use your young players when there is less pressure and let’s face it which teams in the championship have the infrastructure to succeed in the premiership. Save your strongest team for Europe .
Same here. I will support Tigers irrespective of how the leagues or competitions are constituted. Realistically, if Tigers were a non-professional team in the lower reaches, I would still support them but I wouldn't be paying hundreds of £'s on a season ticket.

johnthegriff
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by johnthegriff » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:22 pm

Mark 62 wants those that disagree with his view of ringfencing to provide proof that he is wrong, where is his proof that he is right. He says that without relegation teams will find it easier to introduce young players, that will only apply when a team has decided first that they have no chance of play-offs and second when they have no chance of Champions Cup, it will mean that towards the end of a season those qualifications can be affected when with two teams vying for qualification one plays another team in the mix for honoors and the other a team fielding several youngsters as the result of the game is irrelevant to them.
The Championships proposal for 6 Regional Talent Centres and an end to Academies will be harmful and I think will reduce numbers coming into the game with a view to a possible career.
Mark 62 is right when he suggests that things cannot stay the same, but change has happened, most clubs were not losing money in a big way five years ago, Leicester were breaking even over the professional era despite investing heavily in our ground and improvements, as did Northampton, Gloucester and other but, increasing the salary cap dramatically and adding two marquee players created a burden that non sugardaddy clubs could not manage. Recent changes have hopefully brought about a realism and a change back to simple business principles where money out has to match closely money in. Of course above all the product has to be something that your customer actually wants, I am not sure that less competitive matches are the answer.

teds
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by teds » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:27 pm

Mark62 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:41 pm
teds wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:36 pm
Mark62 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:34 pm


Surely the removal of marquee players and the reduction in salary cap, means all any wealthy backer will be doing is propping up a loss making business
Yes indeed, but my argument would be that ring-fencing is neither necessary nor sufficient to remove marquee players nor reduce salary cap. Once ring-fencing has come in, it will be almost impossible to ever remove it, but the salary cap will be open for renegotiation every few years, if indeed it remains at all.
So you can’t see the benefit of clubs having 2 or 3 seasons to build up a more sustainable squad, being able to bring more home grown players, without the pressure of relegation, the pressure that wouldn’t be easier if salary restrictions and marquee players aren’t removed.
Fair enough everyone is obviously entitled to their own opinion, but is does amuse me the number of doom sayers on here, who turn into Septic Pegs and are able to predict with absolute certainty what is going to happen in 2 or 3 seasons time.

Shame they couldn’t be so accurate about the Saracens debacle and this :censored: pandemic
I am in favour of having a salary cap and of keeping it down to a level that most clubs in most years can post an operating profit. I am also in favour of home grown talent being allowed to flourish.
We agree about these benefits.

However onto where we disagree, I don’t share your optimism a) that ring-fencing will bring them about and b) the long term health of the game won’t be extremely compromised by ring fencing.

As for Septic Pegs, I don’t think anyone has claimed we can predict what will happen in the premiership with certainty. It would take the fun away if we knew.

In contrast, I think it was well understood that it was only a matter of time before a pandemic happened. So much so, we had a special parliamentary committee in place to prepare for it, at least until we needed it.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... ix-months/

Mark62
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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by Mark62 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:42 pm

teds wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:27 pm
Mark62 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:41 pm
teds wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:36 pm


Yes indeed, but my argument would be that ring-fencing is neither necessary nor sufficient to remove marquee players nor reduce salary cap. Once ring-fencing has come in, it will be almost impossible to ever remove it, but the salary cap will be open for renegotiation every few years, if indeed it remains at all.
So you can’t see the benefit of clubs having 2 or 3 seasons to build up a more sustainable squad, being able to bring more home grown players, without the pressure of relegation, the pressure that wouldn’t be easier if salary restrictions and marquee players aren’t removed.
Fair enough everyone is obviously entitled to their own opinion, but is does amuse me the number of doom sayers on here, who turn into Septic Pegs and are able to predict with absolute certainty what is going to happen in 2 or 3 seasons time.

Shame they couldn’t be so accurate about the Saracens debacle and this :censored: pandemic
I am in favour of having a salary cap and of keeping it down to a level that most clubs in most years can post an operating profit. I am also in favour of home grown talent being allowed to flourish.
We agree about these benefits.

However onto where we disagree, I don’t share your optimism a) that ring-fencing will bring them about and b) the long term health of the game won’t be extremely compromised by ring fencing.

As for Septic Pegs, I don’t think anyone has claimed we can predict what will happen in the premiership with certainty. It would take the fun away if we knew.

In contrast, I think it was well understood that it was only a matter of time before a pandemic happened. So much so, we had a special parliamentary committee in place to prepare for it, at least until we needed it.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... ix-months/
Not with certainty no, but a lot of you feel this is the most likely outcome, with no proof whatsoever.
The same can be said of the path that it looks like the premiership will go down, but how you can state that the health of the game will be extremely compromised I’m afraid is beyond me.
Super Rugby has been operating what is effectively a ring fenced game for a number of seasons, and that game doesn’t seem to have been extremely compromised, the same can be said of America’s NFL.

Personally I would rather that short term measures are taken to ensure the future of the game and clubs. The long/midterm future will take care of itself. There is a reason why these wealthy backers are wealthy, they have good business brains.
Pumping money into a product where they have practically no control over the end product, they can’t suddenly invest money to take the club to a much lower salary cap, as Sales back has , or drop £750 k for a Fijian marquee player, is not good business

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Re: Ringfencing almost upon us ?

Post by GETHIN EXILE » Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:00 pm

the simple answer is to set the salary cap at a level that is related to the average matchday income in the premiership. end marquee players. keep promotion/relegation. cut the time period for the 6 nations to 5 weekends with no premiership games on those weekends. ensure all other international games do not clash with premiership games, this would ensure clubs have their big name players available as much as possible thus generating maximum income for the clubs.

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