RagingBull wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:05 am
It's interesting looking at the squad now and before.
Rugby paper a couple weeks ago suggesting
Project LH and TH
Fly Half
Outside Centre
Left Wing
Which IMO is areas that do need strengthening watching this period.
Hopefully Montoya is over the line as a signing also.
Montoya is already confirmed for 2021/22 is he not? Are you dubious of that contract in the circumstances or hopeful he might join earlier given the circumstances RB?
Props depend on what the coaches feel Whitcombe and Dimen are ready for at senior level. If they can take PRC minutes and start for the A-team then Leatigaga being able to play both sides gives reasonable depth with 7 senior props. Rowntree is in the Dev squad too and Tim Hoyt will likely join him next season after leaving school. Plenty of props in the production line basically!
On the left wing I hope we re-sign David Williams on a permanent contract shorter term and hopefully Joe Browning can step up longer term as he develops physically for senior rugby.
Fly-half and outside centre could do with better depth though looking at this period.
I always ere on the side of a smaller squad and using the development guys to fill out depth in these discussion though I admit. Many seasons in a row of watching Tigers set-ups with a large squad containing many underperforming players has given me an obsessive predisposition with not wanting the squad to carry players in their late twenties who add little.
Montoya isn't confirmed yet.
On props
With Genge and Gigena on International radar and no doubt Leatigaga will be on Samoa's.
I just feel we run the risk of potentially being very short on props.
Whilst Dimen could potentially cover still runs things close.
Whitcombe hasn't scrumed down at a level higher than Nat 2, and really should be viewed to loaning out in the championship once that starts up.
Look at the situation Saints have found themselves.
Rowntree, Hoyt and Smith are in the production line yes but are most likely 3/4 years away from being close to Prem ready.
On the prop front, wouldn’t mind looking at the championship, Nottingham for example have Heffernan and Sio (ex-Tiger) who could do a job in the premiership. RB is right, think Dimen and Whitcombe both need some more exposure especially in the set piece before making the step up.
For the future though, think Montoya will massively improve things in the front row, both in the lineout and carrying ability.
Think with Henry and Potter stepping up, we’re okay at backup 10 and wing. Still have SAR to come back from injury too.
Centre we could do with some reinforcements. Huw Jones would be a good signing, he can now cover 15 too and would definitely give us some flexibility.
“Despite the good news in terms of Moroni's health, Tigers' wait for the 43-times capped centre to arrive on these shores is likely to continue as the Rugby Championship has been tentatively scheduled to run from November 7 until December 12”
Comment about his health is regarding COVID and it appears he doesn’t have it according to an article in the Leicester Mercury
Oakham lad born and bred, Tigers season ticket holder who is enjoying steady progression back towards the good old days!
Leicestertinytiger wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:39 pm
On the prop front, wouldn’t mind looking at the championship, Nottingham for example have Heffernan and Sio (ex-Tiger) who could do a job in the premiership. RB is right, think Dimen and Whitcombe both need some more exposure especially in the set piece before making the step up.
For the future though, think Montoya will massively improve things in the front row, both in the lineout and carrying ability.
Think with Henry and Potter stepping up, we’re okay at backup 10 and wing. Still have SAR to come back from injury too.
Centre we could do with some reinforcements. Huw Jones would be a good signing, he can now cover 15 too and would definitely give us some flexibility.
Heffernan got a lot of good write ups last season and was voted into the fans Championship team of the season. Surprised no Prem team took a punt on him as it would have been cheap to outbid what Nottingham will have offered. I'm a little surprised we haven't maybe brought him into the squad like we did with Rory Jennings so we could have a look at him close up.
Loosehead is a more pressing issue, I think we'd want more than Sio and Bower seems very much like a squad filler until next summer. Maybe we've already decided on who we want and Bower is just filling the gap until then.
I'd be surprised if he we signed another flyhalf unless we are getting rid of someone next summer. We might have also changed our mind on another winger with Steward stepping forward as a first team player so early. Previous plans may have factored him being drip fed into the team and maybe a loan deal.
Why 8? Who knows but looking back over the last 7 or so seasons that's how many we use, apart from when we went silly and signed up 10, then felt duty bound to use them all. That was with Cole as a regular international, plus various other at different times, and included Prem Cup Games.
We have 6 in Genge, Gigena, Bower, Cole, Leatigaga & Heyes.
Remember there will be no Prem Cup until November 2021 at the earliest, so there are no "soft games" to play people in. Personally I'd expect Whitcombe & Dimen to go on loan to the Championship and possibly Rowntree too, though he may go lower.
Personally I would suggest we need better than Bower in that 3rd loosehead slot. It's likely to play around 10 games next season, mainly from the bench. Visa restrictions make signing "projects" tricky without international games to cap random players. With Mamukasvili & Borthwick's work at Japan I'd hope we have an open enough mind to potentially look to Georgia, Moldova or Romania to pick up this sort of level of player. Zhvania at Wasps would be a good option/example, he fills a similar role for them.
Regarding tightheads I'd wait to see Jones' intentions on Cole. If he has 100% moved on then we really don't need another, if he is still actively going to call him up when he needs a 3rd choice tighthead then we certainly might.
I would think that Jones has called time on Cole's career. Not sure Jones, in spite of being an ex-hooker really understands the need for front rows to scrumage, as the selection of Macko for the world cup final exposed.
That saidI'm not so sure he (Cole) is quite the scrummager he once was so I don't see England duty as being a concern for Tigers.
I have to say I'm not exactly sure that the internationals will go ahead as we expect with rugby less easily lending itself to the bubble set up we have had for cricket & teams only playing each other once before moving on to the next opponents.
A third tighthead would be looking towards the future. Dan will be 34 by next summer and whilst he may be one of the best props we've ever produced we can't rely on him being the go to option every week like he has been for the last decade.
Leatigaga, Genge and Gigena could be called up internationally and we should also be allowing for rotation as well as the next 12 months will be brutal for the playing squad.
Someone like Heffernan who at 25 should be heading into his prime and who comes with a good pedigree (Leinster academy then Champion with Nottingham) could an easy answer on a dual registration deal with Notts. Trains with us and we develop him ready for when we need him but he plays with Notts to keep match sharp.
I agree with lots of the above but think there is a chance that Dimen could be ready for more first team rugby. He's 21 now, older than Cole was when he started playing first team rugby, and he is by all accounts a massive unit.
I think we could easily get away with him in 2020/21 at 4th choice TH (behind Cole, Heyes, and Nephi), and have Whitcombe step up to be 4th choice LH (behind Gigena, Genge, and Bower). Both could be on deals to local clubs if helpful to make sure they got their minutes in. LH feels more precarious with the possibility of Gigena and Genge on international duty.
It leaves us a little tight, but given that it's unclear exactly how the 2020/21 season plays out I'd rather we took this approach than bought too many squad players.
mol2 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:38 am
I would think that Jones has called time on Cole's career. Not sure Jones, in spite of being an ex-hooker really understands the need for front rows to scrumage, as the selection of Macko for the world cup final exposed.
That saidI'm not so sure he (Cole) is quite the scrummager he once was so I don't see England duty as being a concern for Tigers.
I have to say I'm not exactly sure that the internationals will go ahead as we expect with rugby less easily lending itself to the bubble set up we have had for cricket & teams only playing each other once before moving on to the next opponents.
This would be ex hooker Eddie Jones, one of the most successful elite rugby coaches in world rugby over the last two decades who “doesn’t understand the need for front rows to scrummage as the selection for the World Cup final exposed".
Just one coach in the entire history of the WC has beaten the ABs in the QF’s or SF and won the World Cup Final. The statistics indicate that beating the AB’s seems to take too much out of a team to go on and win a final. However, Jones has managed to beat the AB’s twice in WC SF (miraculously without understanding the importance or scrummaging). He’s won a 6N Grand Slam and back to back 6N championships (amazingly without understanding the importance of scrummaging). He’s coached England to their only ever whitewash of Australia (incredibly without understanding the importance of scrummaging). He’s coached Japan to a WC victory over South Africa (I guess on that occasion it was the South Africans who didn’t understand the importance of scrummaging). In his autobiography John Smit, the Bok captain of the 2007 WC winners wrote “Eddie Jones was the difference between us winning and losing the World Cup” (he doesn’t add – but he doesn’t understand the importance of scrummaging – but what would John Smit know). He coached England to a world record equalling 18 match unbeaten run (without understanding the importance of scrummaging). England will in all probability win the 2019-2020 6N Championship (without understanding the importance of scrummaging).
Eddie Jones is going to be one hell of a coach once he does understand the importance of scrummaging.
I have been a season ticket holder since 1984 and over all those years have seen numerous world class players at the Tigers. However, despite this I cannot recall too many outstanding 13’s if you exclude Manu. We have had very good 12’s including Howard, Allen, Toomua but not outside centres with pace to burn. Hopefully this weakness will be addressed in the near future as I believe this one area that will add a new dimension to our attack
ay2oh wrote: ↑Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:58 pm
I have been a season ticket holder since 1984 and over all those years have seen numerous world class players at the Tigers. However, despite this I cannot recall too many outstanding 13’s if you exclude Manu. We have had very good 12’s including Howard, Allen, Toomua but not outside centres with pace to burn. Hopefully this weakness will be addressed in the near future as I believe this one area that will add a new dimension to our attack
Rabeni.
Hipkiss.
Smith.
Three of my all time favourites.
ay2oh wrote: ↑Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:58 pm
I have been a season ticket holder since 1984 and over all those years have seen numerous world class players at the Tigers. However, despite this I cannot recall too many outstanding 13’s if you exclude Manu. We have had very good 12’s including Howard, Allen, Toomua but not outside centres with pace to burn. Hopefully this weakness will be addressed in the near future as I believe this one area that will add a new dimension to our attack
Rabeni.
Hipkiss.
Smith.
Three of my all time favourites.
Did they have pace to burn?
Without hope we are nothing, keep the faith, a Tiger for eternity
ay2oh wrote: ↑Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:58 pm
I have been a season ticket holder since 1984 and over all those years have seen numerous world class players at the Tigers. However, despite this I cannot recall too many outstanding 13’s if you exclude Manu. We have had very good 12’s including Howard, Allen, Toomua but not outside centres with pace to burn. Hopefully this weakness will be addressed in the near future as I believe this one area that will add a new dimension to our attack
Rabeni.
Hipkiss.
Smith.
Three of my all time favourites.
A certain Sir Clive Woodward was no slouch off the mark in the OC position alongside the wonderful P Dodge. Woodward's greatest talent though was being able to defy gravity.
