Exeter Chiefs

[TomWeston]

....and even we are starting to get some sympathy.

I don’t want other club’s supporters and the media to sympathise with Tigers...I want them to fear us again.

[Crofty]

Even without the controversy surrounding their branding I think Exeter have to be the favourites to replace $arrie$ as the default villain of the league.

They're following the same path as Red Bull have in Formula 1, first they burst onto the scene as a somewhat unorthodox counterpoint to the established order, they then ruffle the feathers of some of the grandees of the sport making them a little bit of a darling for the media, next comes the success which, as it builds, is accompanied by more and more whinging from the organisation (and you can't say Exeter haven't been vocal in wanting $arrie$ shot at dawn for example).

There are now rumours that Exeter will be the first to break ranks over not taking advantage of the Covid contracts situations meanwhile Bristol are the media's new shiny thing and even we are starting to get some sympathy.

Personally, I think Exeter have also benefited from a lot of teams significantly underperforming in the last few seasons. Leicester, Gloucester & Wasps all have (should probably say had ) squads that on paper are much much better than the performances seen. I'm not saying they don't deserve to be top of the league but I doubt anyone here would put any large amount of money on them ever performing well in Europe for instance.

I'd say you're right on the underperformance of others (I might add Harlequins to that list too) and yes I don't think they'll ever dominate a Not the Heineken Cup Cup sponsored by Heineken, but their domestic success will bring some pressure from their fan base in that direction.

Given that they're going to have a falling out with the ones in headdresses who bang drums when they change the branding and start threatening stadium bans (because that is the only way, in the 6th current year, that this is going to go) that pressure could become a proper problem for them as, to relieve it, they'll need to move from their "unorthodox" for a top side squad make up of predominantly fringe at best Internationals to one with a few worldies, with all the fun that brings domestically.

Challenging times ahead in the South West I think...

[Mark62]

I'm not sure it's a valid argument to say you won't change something because you're waiting for the people that are offended to complain enough about it.

My point is are they are offended, or is it other parties being offended for them, I’m trying not to use those 2 words, anyway nuff said it’ll get sorted if it need sorting

Not sure they have said they are specifically offended by Exeter but they have generically stated they are offended by sports teams using their culture and heritage as their own identity.

But also to note is perfectly legitimate to be offended on someone else's behalf. I someone made a racist comment in my company I would be offended, even if I wasn't the target of the racism. And I would be right to complain about it. In my diversity training at work it makes this point very specifically.

Imho there in lies the issue, but everyone has to act as they see appropriate.
I’m not saying you are but there are too many instances of do gooders interfering where it just isn’t required.
I cite the example of 2 colleagues of different sexual orientation walking along having a private conversation, making fun of each other, neither being offended, overheard by a supposed well meaning colleague, who reported them to HR.

As I say this is my opinion, and probably is that of a dinosaur, but the world turned and businesses ran perfectly well before Personnel departments turned into HR

[JP14]

Unfortunately like many threads on here this has turned into a political discussion.
For the record I don’t feel the need for Exeter to change their name or their brand, and had it not been for the unlawful killing in America this would not have been an issue.
I was a supporter of the great Washington Redskins team in the early 80s, Joe Thiesman and John Riggins, I saw no problem with their name and I see no problem with the Chiefs.

It was an issue before the George Floyd shooting, see here this article from 2016. The resulting demonstrations across the World as a result of the murder has just brought the issue more media exposure.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-36965975

[JP14]

Tigerbeat you can't talk about Exeter name and brand change without really talking about the other stuff.
It's the nature of this discussion.

Agreed, it's just people on this forum are incapable of debating it correctly, the Israel Folau thread springs to mind.

[JP14]

• Keep the name

• Get rid of the Tomahawk Chop

• Update the branding to that of Exeter's genuine Celtic origins

• Stadium ban any stranglers who keep using drums and headresses

It's not that hard, the Crusaders showed how it's done following their rebranding after the Christchurch Mosque attack in 2019.

[Crofty]

• Keep the name

• Get rid of the Tomahawk Chop

• Update the branding to that of Exeter's genuine Celtic origins

• Stadium ban any stranglers who keep using drums and headresses

It's not that hard, the Crusaders showed how it's done following their rebranding after the Christchurch Mosque attack in 2019.

Is it really not that hard though? Most of the conflict in the world could be avoided if both sides honestly looked at the situation from the other side's point of view, you know your own, the branding is cringy and racist and has to go, but consider the other side and see if there's not a more likely to succeed approach to take.

The Exeter fans in the headdresses and banging the drums mostly probably don't think that they are racists, indeed they probably think the opposite (that they are generally, in their lives opposed to racism) as, one imagines, most of them aren't doing the Tomahawk Chop to mock Native Americans but just as a bit of, in their minds, harmless fun. Now people who are neither Native Americans nor Exeter fans are telling them, as a matter of unquestionable fact, that they are racist and they must stop. Some will stop because the brand of racist is a powerful one, others will dig their heels in because they know their own minds bare no malice to anyone but those coming in from outside telling them what their own thoughts and motives must be, something they might well characterise in their heads as bullying. If the top of the club acquiesce to the demands this animosity will be strengthened, now their own club is calling these people vile human excrement (because, that is how most people, including most of the ones doing the chop, view racists in the UK in 2020), they're going to feel attacked, they're going to get defensive and they're not going to go away quietly.

I tell you this not in their defence, I have no particular care whether Exeter's fans continue to play dress up or not, whether they keep chanting the way they currently do or not. Being a Tigers fan rather than an Exeter fan I'm spending far more of my time thinking/worrying about our squad situation and the new coaching set up. I'm just making the prediction that this will get ugly before it goes away no matter which way the ownership of Chiefs decides to go. It's also likely to add to their credentials to become the new villian of the league while $arrie$ are relegated.

I will add that stuff like this makes me glad we're such a joyless bunch on the terraces and that our amelodic chants are so boring that few can stay awake through them in order to be offended by them (tongue firmly in cheek, clarification included because it's 2020 and the winky emoticon is no longer enough to deliniate this).

[wellstiger]

Not wishing to tempt fate. Bengal Tigers are on the endangered list.

How long before teams are vilified for hunting we Tigers...........In this Pc correct world we will be chastised for promoting/branding a nearly extinct species..............( Im putting myself in the mind of an eco warrior)
As Sir Dickie Attenborough is a Leicester lad he might well sympathise............

Could we not rebrand Exeter ans Tigers 2nd XV - or does that honour belong to Glaws

I'M JOKING befor keyboard warriors start hitting the keys.

[Mark62]

• Keep the name

• Get rid of the Tomahawk Chop

• Update the branding to that of Exeter's genuine Celtic origins

• Stadium ban any stranglers who keep using drums and headresses

It's not that hard, the Crusaders showed how it's done following their rebranding after the Christchurch Mosque attack in 2019.

Still called the Crusaders though, I think they’ve changed their badge and got rid of the knights in armour before the game

[BengalTiger]

Not wishing to tempt fate. Bengal Tigers are on the endangered list.

How long before teams are vilified for hunting we Tigers...........In this Pc correct world we will be chastised for promoting/branding a nearly extinct species..............( Im putting myself in the mind of an eco warrior)
As Sir Dickie Attenborough is a Leicester lad he might well sympathise............

Could we not rebrand Exeter ans Tigers 2nd XV - or does that honour belong to Glaws

I'M JOKING befor keyboard warriors start hitting the keys.

I have often been in danger is that the same as endangered?

[sk 88]

The fact is that no one here is a Native American (yes, I know I'm making an assumption and I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong!). Therefore, the fact that you (in general, not any specific user) aren't offended by the Chief's cultural appropriation is pretty irrelevant.

Blaming political correctness is completely missing the point IMO.

I know I’m going off thread again, but do you have any examples of Native American groups complaining about the name, because I haven’t seen any, just comments from shall we call them special interest groups.

https://web.archive.org/web/20160809123 ... story.html

Here is a native American group complaining specifically about the Exeter branding.

http://www.ncai.org/proudtobe

The national congress of American Indians has been campaigning against these brands and imagery since 1968.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2 ... lackhawks/

“Any team name or image that evokes Native people emboldens disrespectful fans to continue to paint their faces, don headdresses and act out faux-Native performances,”

Oneida Indian Nation Representative Ray Halbritter said. “These other team names are not racial slurs, but they can be handled in a way that is not necessarily always respectful to Native America and the cultures to which they’re appropriating.”

[JP14]

• Keep the name

• Get rid of the Tomahawk Chop

• Update the branding to that of Exeter's genuine Celtic origins

• Stadium ban any stranglers who keep using drums and headresses

It's not that hard, the Crusaders showed how it's done following their rebranding after the Christchurch Mosque attack in 2019.

Still called the Crusaders though, I think they’ve changed their badge and got rid of the knights in armour before the game

I have said multiple times now that there is no need to change the name. The Crusaders example was just to show that not much needs to happen in order for satisfactory adjustment to be made.

[JP14]

• Keep the name

• Get rid of the Tomahawk Chop

• Update the branding to that of Exeter's genuine Celtic origins

• Stadium ban any stranglers who keep using drums and headresses

It's not that hard, the Crusaders showed how it's done following their rebranding after the Christchurch Mosque attack in 2019.

Is it really not that hard though? Most of the conflict in the world could be avoided if both sides honestly looked at the situation from the other side's point of view, you know your own, the branding is cringy and racist and has to go, but consider the other side and see if there's not a more likely to succeed approach to take.

The Exeter fans in the headdresses and banging the drums mostly probably don't think that they are racists, indeed they probably think the opposite (that they are generally, in their lives opposed to racism) as, one imagines, most of them aren't doing the Tomahawk Chop to mock Native Americans but just as a bit of, in their minds, harmless fun. Now people who are neither Native Americans nor Exeter fans are telling them, as a matter of unquestionable fact, that they are racist and they must stop. Some will stop because the brand of racist is a powerful one, others will dig their heels in because they know their own minds bare no malice to anyone but those coming in from outside telling them what their own thoughts and motives must be, something they might well characterise in their heads as bullying. If the top of the club acquiesce to the demands this animosity will be strengthened, now their own club is calling these people vile human excrement (because, that is how most people, including most of the ones doing the chop, view racists in the UK in 2020), they're going to feel attacked, they're going to get defensive and they're not going to go away quietly.

I tell you this not in their defence, I have no particular care whether Exeter's fans continue to play dress up or not, whether they keep chanting the way they currently do or not. Being a Tigers fan rather than an Exeter fan I'm spending far more of my time thinking/worrying about our squad situation and the new coaching set up. I'm just making the prediction that this will get ugly before it goes away no matter which way the ownership of Chiefs decides to go. It's also likely to add to their credentials to become the new villian of the league while $arrie$ are relegated.

I will add that stuff like this makes me glad we're such a joyless bunch on the terraces and that our amelodic chants are so boring that few can stay awake through them in order to be offended by them (tongue firmly in cheek, clarification included because it's 2020 and the winky emoticon is no longer enough to deliniate this).

Firstly most casual racists don't consider themselves racists. Secondly, I do not think the section of Exeter Chiefs fans in questions are EDL members or anything like that but their use of drums & headdresses are upholding incorrect, Hollywood fabricated stereotypes & amalgamations of different Native American tribes' culture. Exeter's branding is to seek economical benefit from fans buying headdresses etc for the club's financial gain, I wouldn't mind it so much if the ever-so charitable Tony Rowe used this profit to donate to indigenous peoples that would have been ok but it still wouldn't have been right, but he doesn't. I understand you're trying to play Devil's advocate here but the 'fun' excuse does not hold up, true in their intention they're not mocking Native American culture & instead are trying to intimidate the opposition, build up their team etc, but nonetheless in chanting the Tomahawk chop they are still fundamentally mocking indigenous culture regardless of whether they mean to or not. Furthermore, if that line of argument applies to those supporters what's stopping it from excusing a group of lads singing a certain version of "Eeny, meeny, miny, moe" or making judgements on someone's clothing?

Undoubtedly, these people will feel attacked and forced to change their stadium behaviour in what is a free country, but a free country does not mean free from morals, rules or behaviour it should mean freedom from persecution, objectification and so forth.

I understand your line of argument around considering both sides of the matter and I always try to do this but this issue is a binary one, there should be really very little grey area when it comes to modern day racism and unfortunately because of the conservative (with a lower c) nature of some people we have to be blunt to eliminate problems like these from today's society.

[Mark62]

The fact is that no one here is a Native American (yes, I know I'm making an assumption and I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong!). Therefore, the fact that you (in general, not any specific user) aren't offended by the Chief's cultural appropriation is pretty irrelevant.

Blaming political correctness is completely missing the point IMO.

I know I’m going off thread again, but do you have any examples of Native American groups complaining about the name, because I haven’t seen any, just comments from shall we call them special interest groups.

https://web.archive.org/web/20160809123 ... story.html

Here is a native American group complaining specifically about the Exeter branding.

http://www.ncai.org/proudtobe

The national congress of American Indians has been campaigning against these brands and imagery since 1968.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2 ... lackhawks/

“Any team name or image that evokes Native people emboldens disrespectful fans to continue to paint their faces, don headdresses and act out faux-Native performances,”

Oneida Indian Nation Representative Ray Halbritter said. “These other team names are not racial slurs, but they can be handled in a way that is not necessarily always respectful to Native America and the cultures to which they’re appropriating.”

Thanks for that, in that case action should be taken immediately by Exeter, to remove any Native American imagery associated with the club, and fans should be denied entry, if they’re ever allowed in again, if they are wearing Native American costume.

[RagingBull]

I find the most annoying thing about this discussion is when people make it out that Exeter fans are being called racist.
There is a difference between Racism and Ignorance.
It's trying to change the argument.

The club has a big side of the blame for this, have they bothered in their 11 years of using native american imagery as marketing tools tried to reach out to the tribes or educate their supporters on where it came from?

As mentioned in the article Is it harmless fun if you are not willing to do the chants, wear headdress in a native american reserve? Would you not do it because you know it would make things awkward?