LEICESTER TIGERS 2020/21 SQUAD/TRANSFERS/CONTRACT THREAD Part 2

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Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2020/21 SQUAD/TRANSFERS/CONTRACT THREAD Part 2

Post by ABClub » Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:31 pm

Mark62 wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:24 pm
ABClub wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:21 pm
Mark62 wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:56 pm


Agreed but then why sign the Georgian hooker
Because we were in talks with Montoya to come in from 21/22 when his contract at the Jaguares ended after the 21 Super Rugby season. The Jaguares allowing players to look at options earlier means we may lose Montoya long term if he decides to sign elsewhere in order to secure his playing future.
Ok thanks that makes sense. So if Montoya came I doubt 3 into 2 would go so I could possibly see an early exit for OTY. Only my opinion of course
Montoya would probably take up the cap space that a back row would have taken otherwise. Kalamafoni and Thompson out with only Brink in so far. Spencer was on a decent wedge as well but that will be directed at a direct replacement by the sounds of things.

Personally I'd take the hit on back row depth to bring in a player of Montoya's quality long term. Especially if an international quality lock has been secured.

Tom re-signed on a much reduced deal compared to his previous, significant contract. Polota-Nau was also on a huge contract for a hooker. Top player agent sportif released data earlier this season that showed hooker on average to be the lowest paid position in the Prem and Pro14. The spending at hooker this season was huge considering the poor performances in the position compared to most Premiership rivals.

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Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2020/21 SQUAD/TRANSFERS/CONTRACT THREAD Part 2

Post by sam16111986 » Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:19 pm

ABClub wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:31 pm
Mark62 wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:24 pm
ABClub wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:21 pm


Because we were in talks with Montoya to come in from 21/22 when his contract at the Jaguares ended after the 21 Super Rugby season. The Jaguares allowing players to look at options earlier means we may lose Montoya long term if he decides to sign elsewhere in order to secure his playing future.
Ok thanks that makes sense. So if Montoya came I doubt 3 into 2 would go so I could possibly see an early exit for OTY. Only my opinion of course
Montoya would probably take up the cap space that a back row would have taken otherwise. Kalamafoni and Thompson out with only Brink in so far. Spencer was on a decent wedge as well but that will be directed at a direct replacement by the sounds of things.

Personally I'd take the hit on back row depth to bring in a player of Montoya's quality long term. Especially if an international quality lock has been secured.

Tom re-signed on a much reduced deal compared to his previous, significant contract. Polota-Nau was also on a huge contract for a hooker. Top player agent sportif released data earlier this season that showed hooker on average to be the lowest paid position in the Prem and Pro14. The spending at hooker this season was huge considering the poor performances in the position compared to most Premiership rivals.
It's worth remembering that if rugby starts under the cloud of Covid then Tom Youngs may well not be involved. Tiff is unlikely to have the same robust immune system most people have and so that branch of the Youngs family might be isolating for a whole yet.

The problem with having Montoya, Youngs, the Georgian and Kerr on the books at the same time (there's Clare as well) is that someone is going to get annoyed about the lack of game time. I rate Kerr and would like to see us really push him on and make him at least the regular reserve. He's good enough and was unfairly down the pecking order last season. If he's overlooked again he'll move on at the end of the next season.

Clare is squad filler and whilst I've always been a big fan of Tom he is now 33. Those two are the expendable options. We need to encourage Kerr to renew and then we could have the settled selection of Montoya, Kerr and the Georgian for an extended period. If Youngs wants to take up a White style role and be 4th choice that would be ideal.

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Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2020/21 SQUAD/TRANSFERS/CONTRACT THREAD Part 2

Post by kk20gb30 » Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:25 am

Certainly agree with regard to Kerr.

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Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2020/21 SQUAD/TRANSFERS/CONTRACT THREAD Part 2

Post by Mark62 » Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:50 am

sam16111986 wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:19 pm
ABClub wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:31 pm
Mark62 wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:24 pm


Ok thanks that makes sense. So if Montoya came I doubt 3 into 2 would go so I could possibly see an early exit for OTY. Only my opinion of course
Montoya would probably take up the cap space that a back row would have taken otherwise. Kalamafoni and Thompson out with only Brink in so far. Spencer was on a decent wedge as well but that will be directed at a direct replacement by the sounds of things.

Personally I'd take the hit on back row depth to bring in a player of Montoya's quality long term. Especially if an international quality lock has been secured.

Tom re-signed on a much reduced deal compared to his previous, significant contract. Polota-Nau was also on a huge contract for a hooker. Top player agent sportif released data earlier this season that showed hooker on average to be the lowest paid position in the Prem and Pro14. The spending at hooker this season was huge considering the poor performances in the position compared to most Premiership rivals.
It's worth remembering that if rugby starts under the cloud of Covid then Tom Youngs may well not be involved. Tiff is unlikely to have the same robust immune system most people have and so that branch of the Youngs family might be isolating for a whole yet.

The problem with having Montoya, Youngs, the Georgian and Kerr on the books at the same time (there's Clare as well) is that someone is going to get annoyed about the lack of game time. I rate Kerr and would like to see us really push him on and make him at least the regular reserve. He's good enough and was unfairly down the pecking order last season. If he's overlooked again he'll move on at the end of the next season.

Clare is squad filler and whilst I've always been a big fan of Tom he is now 33. Those two are the expendable options. We need to encourage Kerr to renew and then we could have the settled selection of Montoya, Kerr and the Georgian for an extended period. If Youngs wants to take up a White style role and be 4th choice that would be ideal.
Excellent post, totally agree that if Montoya were to become available earlier then a sacrifice may be required and that mustn’t be Kerr.
Regarding Tom he did say that he and the family were isolating in Leicestershire but there do seem to be pictures of him on the farm so not sure where he is.

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Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2020/21 SQUAD/TRANSFERS/CONTRACT THREAD Part 2

Post by RagingBull » Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:24 am

We need starters to be of a quality that those below them have to raise their game to overtake them.
We saw it in Props
Genge had to push his game to get game time ahead of Ayerza and Logo
Cole had to up his game to get picked ahead of Castro and White.
Set the players a high bar to try to overtake, currently we haven't had that outside Loosehead, Tighthead, and 7 which has also helped produce some very promising in Gigena, Heyes and Reffell.
Until last season our pack outside that was pretty meh and it just didn't really seem to force the standards.

In an ideal world Montoya would go on a season deal to Japan earn some bank (The Japanese clubs don't seem to care about 1 year deals and look to short term instead of long term) then get him signed up for the season after next.
BUT if we have to sign him now in order to secure him and it upsets players then :smt039

(This is if he's even interested still in coming)

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Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2020/21 SQUAD/TRANSFERS/CONTRACT THREAD Part 2

Post by BFG » Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:52 am

Not sure I agree RB because that's not what I see when I look at the Exeter squad.
What I do see is cumulative strength based on hard work and built by a quality coaching team.
I wonder if players like Jack Yeandle would even get a mention on this topic but what a superb player he has been for Exeter.

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Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2020/21 SQUAD/TRANSFERS/CONTRACT THREAD Part 2

Post by RagingBull » Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:07 am

That's good counterpoint.
Although I do think that has also been Exeter's limiting factor in Europe.
Hence why they have signed Hogg and Richie Gray

Yeandle has indeed been a superb player for Exeter. Yeandle is a club's dream player very consistent but also knows his limits.
He gave Cowan-Dickie a high base to aim for.

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Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2020/21 SQUAD/TRANSFERS/CONTRACT THREAD Part 2

Post by BFG » Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:13 am

RagingBull wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:07 am
That's good counterpoint.
Although I do think that has also been Exeter's limiting factor in Europe.
Hence why they have signed Hogg and Richie Gray

Yeandle has indeed been a superb player for Exeter. Yeandle is a club's dream player very consistent but also knows his limits.
He gave Cowan-Dickie a high base to aim for.
I think you can buy all the superstars you like but it's got to be afforded and if it isn't together then it won't work.
I also look around at places like Sarries and for all the talk about the Vunipola's players like Barrington and Wray are gems in my opinion.

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Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2020/21 SQUAD/TRANSFERS/CONTRACT THREAD Part 2

Post by JP14 » Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:27 am

BFG wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:13 am
RagingBull wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:07 am
That's good counterpoint.
Although I do think that has also been Exeter's limiting factor in Europe.
Hence why they have signed Hogg and Richie Gray

Yeandle has indeed been a superb player for Exeter. Yeandle is a club's dream player very consistent but also knows his limits.
He gave Cowan-Dickie a high base to aim for.
I think you can buy all the superstars you like but it's got to be afforded and if it isn't together then it won't work.
I also look around at places like Sarries and for all the talk about the Vunipola's players like Barrington and Wray are gems in my opinion.
The quality club players like BFG mentions in Barrington & Wray are the type of players Tigers lost & ineptly replaced with "journeymen" so even though we have had a very decent first XV we haven't had the players to fill in because we weren't bringing enough quality players through the academy or had players that cared more about the shirt then their pay-check.

I think that has now been solved coupled with MacGinty's recruiting we're in a really good spot for when the rugby comes back.
"Our Greatest Glory Is Not In Never Failing, But In Rising Every Time We Fall" Confucius

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Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2020/21 SQUAD/TRANSFERS/CONTRACT THREAD Part 2

Post by Leicestertinytiger » Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:10 am

This is why I would be surprised if the Montoya rumours are true. We have 4 senior hookers and have already released the leavers list. Unless another hooker leaves there’s no way it would work with 5 players all wanting first team action.

Clare or Kerr could always be loaned to a championship team I guess if need be. Although neither would be on much money so would also have to find cap space for Montoya.

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Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2020/21 SQUAD/TRANSFERS/CONTRACT THREAD Part 2

Post by sam16111986 » Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:23 am

RagingBull wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:07 am
That's good counterpoint.
Although I do think that has also been Exeter's limiting factor in Europe.
Hence why they have signed Hogg and Richie Gray

Yeandle has indeed been a superb player for Exeter. Yeandle is a club's dream player very consistent but also knows his limits.
He gave Cowan-Dickie a high base to aim for.
I think Exeter's main limiting factor in Europe has been their half backs. If you're going to play that brand of rugby then you need to control the game and take the chances when they come. Their half backs controlled fairly well but often failed to capitalise and let other teams back into games. Hogg from fullback will offer a lot of stability and help with that.

Anyway I digress. I agree that high standards should be set and I'd like to see Montoya come in. It's more that we need to look beyond just this season when we select bench spots. Was there much between Kerr and TPN last season? No, I often felt we went with the experience just because we thought we needed it. That did little to push on TPN who lacked his best form and didn't offer Kerr chances to develop. If Montoya comes in to replace Youngs then Youngs takes on the White role. Sure if the other hookers don't perform he comes back in but opportunities need to be given for the younger guys to develop, off the bench is fine.

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Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2020/21 SQUAD/TRANSFERS/CONTRACT THREAD Part 2

Post by Mark62 » Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:33 am

sam16111986 wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:23 am
RagingBull wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:07 am
That's good counterpoint.
Although I do think that has also been Exeter's limiting factor in Europe.
Hence why they have signed Hogg and Richie Gray

Yeandle has indeed been a superb player for Exeter. Yeandle is a club's dream player very consistent but also knows his limits.
He gave Cowan-Dickie a high base to aim for.
I think Exeter's main limiting factor in Europe has been their half backs. If you're going to play that brand of rugby then you need to control the game and take the chances when they come. Their half backs controlled fairly well but often failed to capitalise and let other teams back into games. Hogg from fullback will offer a lot of stability and help with that.

Anyway I digress. I agree that high standards should be set and I'd like to see Montoya come in. It's more that we need to look beyond just this season when we select bench spots. Was there much between Kerr and TPN last season? No, I often felt we went with the experience just because we thought we needed it. That did little to push on TPN who lacked his best form and didn't offer Kerr chances to develop. If Montoya comes in to replace Youngs then Youngs takes on the White role. Sure if the other hookers don't perform he comes back in but opportunities need to be given for the younger guys to develop, off the bench is fine.
With Borthwick coming I expect it very much to be perform to the required standard or someone else will be given a go.

As an aside I don’t expect any announcements to be made today.

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Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2020/21 SQUAD/TRANSFERS/CONTRACT THREAD Part 2

Post by johnthegriff » Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:49 am

i think for a team to be successful you need in each position two quality players backed up by a younger one pushing for a starting place to ensure progression. In specialist positions such as hooker and scrum half and fly half I think you need three quality players at least as two are required for each game so with injuries and rest rotation three is the minimum.
I think Kerr has the potential to be a Premiership player and at 24 he should be making his claim more clearly, my concern is that if he does push himself up the ranking he will be nearer a regular Scotland place and there will then be pressure on him to move to Glasgow or Edinburgh as has happened with other Leicester based Scots.

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Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2020/21 SQUAD/TRANSFERS/CONTRACT THREAD Part 2

Post by sam16111986 » Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:24 pm

johnthegriff wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:49 am
I think Kerr has the potential to be a Premiership player and at 24 he should be making his claim more clearly, my concern is that if he does push himself up the ranking he will be nearer a regular Scotland place and there will then be pressure on him to move to Glasgow or Edinburgh as has happened with other Leicester based Scots.
In which case we should only sign English players? Then hope they haven't got a Welsh/Scottish/Irish branch of the family...

Scotland are normally happy to select players not based in Scotland and have a few good hookers so shouldn't be too big a problem.

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Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2020/21 SQUAD/TRANSFERS/CONTRACT THREAD Part 2

Post by westwinds31 » Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:13 pm

Pushing for positions is great, but the key factor for any squad to be successful is buy in, from everyone. It starts with coaches then the senior players drive it and the youngsters look and think “I want some of this” . All it takes is for someone not on the same page coaching wise and playing and the whole thing goes to pot. Tigers over the last 5+ years is a perfect example of this. Exeter and Sarries are the only clubs who have managed to get this right and as mentioned, even with the Chiefs tight squad, they haven’t managed to go that step further in Europe. For the rest, it’s a constant churn of players coming and going, promising much but ultimately delivering little and round you go. Gloucester, Bath, Worcester.....they’re all the same. We’re sadly in that group but trying to move upwards. It’s a long way back.

A few players are in for a shock I think once Borthwick comes in. Ben Young’s comments say a lot I think. He was on his way then when he realised Borthwick was coming in, changed his mind. The guy has presence and a reputation. Like Baxter...like McCall, like Sanderson.

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