LEICESTER TIGERS 2020/21 SQUAD/TRANSFERS/CONTRACT THREAD Part 2

[Tiglon]

"...Santiago Medrano (pillar), Jordan Taufua (3 e line), Matias Alemanno (2 e line), Ma'a Nonu (center), Charly Malié (rear), Benjamin Fall (wing / rear), Marika Koroibete (wing) and Semesa Rokoduguni (winger) were ready to come, ”says Dominici.

Read into that what you will. I'm sure none will have signed contracts because Dominici never got as far as having anything to do with the club but, unless he's fabricating the whole thing, he clearly felt they had expressed a very strong interest.

[ABClub]

I do not subscribe to the view that Borthwick is a miracle worker and that it matters not who we sign as he can turn them into superstars. If we lose the likes of Taufua, Veianu and Lavanini we will not be in a good place going forward.

If we lose all three of those and don't replace then it's hard to imagine us finishing higher than 11th again next season.

I don't understand though how Tigers have been so much worse hit by this than other clubs that we have to lose star players and no other club does.

Gloucester losing Mostert is a huge blow to be fair. Their best player. Marais and Marshall were also important players for them.

I'd be surprised if Wasps didn't need to make cuts as well. Their Kiwi quartet of Gopperth, Fekitoa, Sopoaga and Toomaga-Allen are on big wages.

Sarries will surely have to make further cuts before returning to the Prem with the cap coming down. Their squad is still very strong once the loan players return.

Quins had already released/lost a few high paid players so may be alright. Worcester have lost Taufete'e and Mills who were two of their best players, plus they were below the cap I believe. Bath have also released a stack of player and only brought a few in.

Sale and Saints have smaller squads without much excess which will help them.

[RagingBull]

Yeh.
Most teams haven't announced anything about the pay cuts situation, one way or another.
I think only Sale and only Bristol have a smaller squad size than them in the league.

[Hot_Charlie]

I do not subscribe to the view that Borthwick is a miracle worker and that it matters not who we sign as he can turn them into superstars. If we lose the likes of Taufua, Veianu and Lavanini we will not be in a good place going forward.

If we lose all three of those and don't replace then it's hard to imagine us finishing higher than 11th again next season.

I don't understand though how Tigers have been so much worse hit by this than other clubs that we have to lose star players and no other club does.

Gloucester losing Mostert is a huge blow to be fair. Their best player. Marais and Marshall were also important players for them.

I'd be surprised if Wasps didn't need to make cuts as well. Their Kiwi quartet of Gopperth, Fekitoa, Sopoaga and Toomaga-Allen are on big wages.

Sarries will surely have to make further cuts before returning to the Prem with the cap coming down. Their squad is still very strong once the loan players return.

Quins had already released/lost a few high paid players so may be alright. Worcester have lost Taufete'e and Mills who were two of their best players, plus they were below the cap I believe. Bath have also released a stack of player and only brought a few in.

Sale and Saints have smaller squads without much excess which will help them.

It’ll also depend on where a player is on their contract cycle - for example someone who is a marquee (like Taufua) in one of their years - who might either no longer be affordable by the club or, if not in their marquee “year” the pay-cut (of an already lower salary) may be unpalatable for them.

[Scuttle]

"I will quote the players who should have accompanied us: Benjamin Fall, Jordan Taufua, Santiago Medrano, Matías Alemanno, Charly Malié, Ma'a Nonu, then Rodrigo Roncero and Juan Hernández as collaborators”

Dominici may be reading more into what might have been initial interest; and therein lies the rub, lots of might and may involved without necessarily real substance. If one were headhunted by someone who said they were launching a great new venture one might say one was interested, but would not likely jump in without further due diligence. It is the same for Taufua; if his agent were approached he would likely say they were interested so as not to lose the opportunity. That may not have been a genuine commitment but Dominici might have thought so. As I say, plenty of might and may.

[WhitecapTiger]

The main thing I remember Christophe Dominic for is dropping the ball;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_IuaU8WMxU

Seems he may have done it again

[johnthegriff]

I would think it likely that all deals for incoming were agreed before the financial constraints of the pandemic and the revision of the salary cap. It would be a very difficult conversation asking someone to accept a reduced salary if you were in the process of announcing a new recruit in their position. We obviously need to reduce our wage bill, we cannot reduce the numbers of playing staff by many, you need a certain number to complete a season, 23 required each match, 7 or 8 of injured each week and obligations to play A League and Premier Cup games. We are not in a good position to pick up players released by other clubs and few other clubs are in a good position to move for our guys.

[sam16111986]

I do not subscribe to the view that Borthwick is a miracle worker and that it matters not who we sign as he can turn them into superstars. If we lose the likes of Taufua, Veianu and Lavanini we will not be in a good place going forward.

If we lose all three of those and don't replace then it's hard to imagine us finishing higher than 11th again next season.

I don't understand though how Tigers have been so much worse hit by this than other clubs that we have to lose star players and no other club does.

Gloucester losing Mostert is a huge blow to be fair. Their best player. Marais and Marshall were also important players for them.

I'd be surprised if Wasps didn't need to make cuts as well. Their Kiwi quartet of Gopperth, Fekitoa, Sopoaga and Toomaga-Allen are on big wages.

Sarries will surely have to make further cuts before returning to the Prem with the cap coming down. Their squad is still very strong once the loan players return.

Quins had already released/lost a few high paid players so may be alright. Worcester have lost Taufete'e and Mills who were two of their best players, plus they were below the cap I believe. Bath have also released a stack of player and only brought a few in.

Sale and Saints have smaller squads without much excess which will help them.

Wasps have released/lost Nizam Carr, Ashely Johnson, Bill Searle and Charlie Matthews. Incoming is Myles Edwards from Oyannaux (sounds like a punt) and Ryan Mills. Rumours Flamert the French lock/blindside is off to Tolouse as well. Definite reduction to the cap at present unless they are announcing a few more.

I suspect a lot of clubs are just trying to negotiate how long they can maintain the reduced pay now and are then planning to cut before the salary cap reduces next season. Next summer may well be when we lose Taufua, Lavanini and TV as I think their contracts are up for renewal then and our financial position won't be the same as when they signed their last deal.

[Dangerous4]

It's good to know Montoya is coming for the 2021 / 2022 season.

[ABClub]

If we lose all three of those and don't replace then it's hard to imagine us finishing higher than 11th again next season.

I don't understand though how Tigers have been so much worse hit by this than other clubs that we have to lose star players and no other club does.

Gloucester losing Mostert is a huge blow to be fair. Their best player. Marais and Marshall were also important players for them.

I'd be surprised if Wasps didn't need to make cuts as well. Their Kiwi quartet of Gopperth, Fekitoa, Sopoaga and Toomaga-Allen are on big wages.

Sarries will surely have to make further cuts before returning to the Prem with the cap coming down. Their squad is still very strong once the loan players return.

Quins had already released/lost a few high paid players so may be alright. Worcester have lost Taufete'e and Mills who were two of their best players, plus they were below the cap I believe. Bath have also released a stack of player and only brought a few in.

Sale and Saints have smaller squads without much excess which will help them.

Wasps have released/lost Nizam Carr, Ashely Johnson, Bill Searle and Charlie Matthews. Incoming is Myles Edwards from Oyannaux (sounds like a punt) and Ryan Mills. Rumours Flamert the French lock/blindside is off to Tolouse as well. Definite reduction to the cap at present unless they are announcing a few more.

I suspect a lot of clubs are just trying to negotiate how long they can maintain the reduced pay now and are then planning to cut before the salary cap reduces next season. Next summer may well be when we lose Taufua, Lavanini and TV as I think their contracts are up for renewal then and our financial position won't be the same as when they signed their last deal.

Taufua was a 2 and a half year deal. So he has another two seasons to run on the current contract. If he's facing a pay cut then he could move on as Mostert, etc have though.

Telusa is out of contract next summer I believe. I'm unsure on how long Lavanini signed for.

[Traveller]

Just to put this desperation for superstars into perspective, a breakdown of the 2013-2014 Tigers Premiership Champions:
Ben & Tom Youngs, Cole, Tuilagi Croft, Crane all home grown. We didn’t buy them in as established international superstars.

Allen (22) released by Gloucester, two caps prior to coming to Welford Road. Kitchener (23) never capped at international level. Morris (23) joined from Leinster where he’d been on a development contract; never won an international cap. Salvi (26) short-term injury replacement contract; never played at international level. Two international caps between the four of them.

Mulipola had a handful of caps for Samoa, but was ‘so’ sought after that he came on trial, was only offered a 12-month contract and actually joined Hawkes Bay!

Parling (25) joined as a 2nd row / flanker uncapped. Goneva (28), a Fijian international, but a journeyman otherwise having played for Rotherham Titans, US Colomiers and Club Tarbes. By the time Tait joined his international career was over, and he’d had more serious injuries than international caps (38). A lot of Tigers supporters were very sceptical when he was signed and he barely played in the first 18 months.

Only Toby Flood could reasonably be presented as a potential international star, but even then, he was emerging on the international scene. He was not an established international.

Yet somehow, somehow, this same bunch of uninspiring journeymen won the Premiership.

I’d argue – excellent recruitment, player development, club culture, the quality of the backroom staff, a bit of patience, but for me, most important of all an influential cohort of excellent home-grown players.

[RagingBull]

Crane was signed from Leeds
Allen wasn't released by Gloucester, and had 91 caps for them.
Kitchener at 23 had 61 caps for Worcester
Salvi was the starter for Brumbies and Bath
Goneva was signed of the back of a great World cup.
Parling at 25 had 116 caps for Falcons, was voted player of the season for them, had captained them and "He was the runner-up for the Gatorade Performance of the Guinness Premiership Season 2008–09"

Like I understand the need to give a player time.
But let's not act like they were pluck from obscurity.
All of those names outside of Flood and Goneva was considered project signings or extremely talented youngsters.
Tait was signed on a pay per play deal.
(You also have to factor in, those days it was very rare for players to get that much game time before 21)

[Tiglon]

I agree in theory, Traveller. The Saracens and Exeter winning sides back up your argument. However, the players you list were coming into a dominant side and asked to maintain that dominance (which, eventually, they failed to do) - what we are asking now is for players to come in and become better than 8-10 teams who are currently superior and that is a much bigger ask. Furthermore, if your homegrown heroes are mostly either past their best or not quite ready yet, your squad players' performances are a bit underwhelming, and then you lose your superstars as well, you're in a bit of a pickle.

I'm only worried if those stars are leaving now - if it's in a years time then I'm pretty relaxed about it, although a lot will depend on the development of our current crop of youngsters. If Reffell, Lewis and Steward become as good as some expect, then Veainu and Taufua might not be needed by the end of next season.

[Traveller]

Crane was signed from Leeds
Allen wasn't released by Gloucester, and had 91 caps for them.
Kitchener at 23 had 61 caps for Worcester
Salvi was the starter for Brumbies and Bath
Goneva was signed of the back of a great World cup.
Parling at 25 had 116 caps for Falcons, was voted player of the season for them, had captained them and "He was the runner-up for the Gatorade Performance of the Guinness Premiership Season 2008–09"

Like I understand the need to give a player time.
But let's not act like they were pluck from obscurity.
All of those names outside of Flood and Goneva was considered project signings or extremely talented youngsters.
Tait was signed on a pay per play deal.
(You also have to factor in, those days it was very rare for players to get that much game time before 21)

You simply confirm my point. It was about excellent recruitment; Allen, Salvi, Morris, Kitchener: Although none of that foursome went on to have international careers they were central to our success. The signing of Parling was fantastic, but he wasn’t an international when he arrived. The club developed him into a Lion. He said as much.

My only point is that success can come from high quality coaching and cute recruitment. However too often on here in it seems to be that unless we sign established internationals we are wasting our time.

What has let us down in the last few years has been the lack of abject coaching, which has resulted in erratic recruitment, allied to the failure to invest in the academy. Which is why I am now far more optimistic about the future - Covid aside.

[Traveller]

Crane was signed from Leeds
Allen wasn't released by Gloucester, and had 91 caps for them.
Kitchener at 23 had 61 caps for Worcester
Salvi was the starter for Brumbies and Bath
Goneva was signed of the back of a great World cup.
Parling at 25 had 116 caps for Falcons, was voted player of the season for them, had captained them and "He was the runner-up for the Gatorade Performance of the Guinness Premiership Season 2008–09"

Like I understand the need to give a player time.
But let's not act like they were pluck from obscurity.
All of those names outside of Flood and Goneva was considered project signings or extremely talented youngsters.
Tait was signed on a pay per play deal.
(You also have to factor in, those days it was very rare for players to get that much game time before 21)

You simply confirm my point. It was about excellent recruitment; Allen, Salvi, Morris, Kitchener: Although none of that foursome went on to have international careers they were central to our success. The signing of Parling was fantastic, but he wasn’t an international when he arrived. The club developed him into a Lion. He said as much.

My only point is that success can come from high quality coaching and cute recruitment. However too often on here in it seems to be that unless we sign established internationals we are wasting our time.

What has let us down in the last few years has been the lack of abject coaching, which has resulted in erratic recruitment, allied to the failure to invest in the academy. Which is why I am now far more optimistic about the future - Covid aside.

Correction - not 'the lack of abject coaching' but 'abject coaching'!