Leicestertinytiger wrote: ↑Thu May 14, 2020 8:26 am
Am I the only one who wouldn’t want any Saracens players on loan, regardless of who they are? Happily negotiate permanent moves for any of the likes of Itoje, Kruis, Isiekwe, Kpoku, but want players committed long term to the club.
No you are not the only one. Itoje is one of the best players I have ever seen, and I'd love to have him as a full-time Tiger. But he is unapologetically Saracens and all we would ever be for him is a port in a storm. Leicester Tigers is not a 'waiting room'. We would be handing over wads of cash so that MI could play for England and the British Lions before going back to a club that had demonstrated little or no regard for Tigers in recent years.
I understand the argument that the youngsters would learn from him, but there are other players out there who can show the youngsters what it takes, who would be completely committed to Tigers. The sort of influence that George Smith had at Wasps.
If there is any money going around I would want it going to players who are absolutely committed to playing for Tigers. The likes of Reffell et al.
He is a marvellous player, and every time I see him in an England shirt I think we stand a chance of winning. But the days of the short term fix at Tigers have to be over for us to be successful in the long term.
If he were to come, and it is doubtful, I’m not aware that wads of cash have been mentioned, being on loan makes that less likely and Tigers would be in control of the situation, so they would pay what they can afford.
Your comparison with George Smith seems strange as surely that is exactly the sort of role you would want Itoje to play, and for those young second rows in the development squad to be on the same training paddock as him would only be beneficial.
Keeping his England place is an issue, but who knows what form the 6 nations will take, and the All Blacks have already said said they aren’t coming North in November.
As for the Lions he is going no matter where he is playing, imo as captain, but again at the moment that tour is by no means certain.
As for being unapologetically Saracens he is a professional athlete and therefore should give 100% for whatever shirt he wears
1. We neither of us know about the money.
2. George Smith didn't go to Wasps for a year before returning to one of Wasps closest rivals Leicester Tiger. He went there when his international career had ended, and he was entirely committed to Wasps. So it is obviously not exactly the same. It is very different.
3. I am sure he is going to play for England and go on the Lions tour.
4. I don't blame him for unapologetically being Saracens through and through. It is just that right now I only want players who are desperate to play for Tigers.
5. But I don't disagree that he is an absolutely wonderful player.
No you are not the only one. Itoje is one of the best players I have ever seen, and I'd love to have him as a full-time Tiger. But he is unapologetically Saracens and all we would ever be for him is a port in a storm. Leicester Tigers is not a 'waiting room'. We would be handing over wads of cash so that MI could play for England and the British Lions before going back to a club that had demonstrated little or no regard for Tigers in recent years.
I understand the argument that the youngsters would learn from him, but there are other players out there who can show the youngsters what it takes, who would be completely committed to Tigers. The sort of influence that George Smith had at Wasps.
If there is any money going around I would want it going to players who are absolutely committed to playing for Tigers. The likes of Reffell et al.
He is a marvellous player, and every time I see him in an England shirt I think we stand a chance of winning. But the days of the short term fix at Tigers have to be over for us to be successful in the long term.
If he were to come, and it is doubtful, I’m not aware that wads of cash have been mentioned, being on loan makes that less likely and Tigers would be in control of the situation, so they would pay what they can afford.
Your comparison with George Smith seems strange as surely that is exactly the sort of role you would want Itoje to play, and for those young second rows in the development squad to be on the same training paddock as him would only be beneficial.
Keeping his England place is an issue, but who knows what form the 6 nations will take, and the All Blacks have already said said they aren’t coming North in November.
As for the Lions he is going no matter where he is playing, imo as captain, but again at the moment that tour is by no means certain.
As for being unapologetically Saracens he is a professional athlete and therefore should give 100% for whatever shirt he wears
1. We neither of us know about the money.
2. George Smith didn't go to Wasps for a year before returning to one of Wasps closest rivals Leicester Tiger. He went there when his international career had ended, and he was entirely committed to Wasps. So it is obviously not exactly the same. It is very different.
3. I am sure he is going to play for England and go on the Lions tour.
4. I don't blame him for unapologetically being Saracens through and through. It is just that right now I only want players who are desperate to play for Tigers.
5. But I don't disagree that he is an absolutely wonderful player.
And if it was announced he was signing for next season you would be secretly be delighted
If we're struggling at the moment to sign a top class 2nd row* as most seem to agree we need, I think having someone like Itoje for a season would be great. I'll be surprised if he is coming though, but it would give us a bit of breathing space....
*I have no idea if we are struggling, but I'm sure it can;t be easy under the current circumstances.
If he were to come, and it is doubtful, I’m not aware that wads of cash have been mentioned, being on loan makes that less likely and Tigers would be in control of the situation, so they would pay what they can afford.
Your comparison with George Smith seems strange as surely that is exactly the sort of role you would want Itoje to play, and for those young second rows in the development squad to be on the same training paddock as him would only be beneficial.
Keeping his England place is an issue, but who knows what form the 6 nations will take, and the All Blacks have already said said they aren’t coming North in November.
As for the Lions he is going no matter where he is playing, imo as captain, but again at the moment that tour is by no means certain.
As for being unapologetically Saracens he is a professional athlete and therefore should give 100% for whatever shirt he wears
1. We neither of us know about the money.
2. George Smith didn't go to Wasps for a year before returning to one of Wasps closest rivals Leicester Tiger. He went there when his international career had ended, and he was entirely committed to Wasps. So it is obviously not exactly the same. It is very different.
3. I am sure he is going to play for England and go on the Lions tour.
4. I don't blame him for unapologetically being Saracens through and through. It is just that right now I only want players who are desperate to play for Tigers.
5. But I don't disagree that he is an absolutely wonderful player.
And if it was announced he was signing for next season you would be secretly be delighted
I think he is a really fantastic player. I love watching fantastic players. I love watching him play. But most of all I want to see the club make consistent progress, rather than lurch from one solution to another solution. We've had far to much of that these pst years. I can see the argument that he would be great for the even a year, and I don't question his professionalism. I am sure he would give everything for whichever club he plays for. I wouldn't be protesting outside Welford Road - put it that way.
Or we just get a lock like Alemanno or Kruis on a 3 year deal who’ll be invested in the club long term and we can build a pack with.
Obviously Itoje is one of the best locks in the world, but for a season long loan I doubt we would get the best out of him with international call ups. He’s also nailed on starting for England regardless what division he plays in.
Wayne Richardson Fan Club wrote: ↑Thu May 14, 2020 1:08 pm
Loan player for one year, learns all our moves & calls goes back to a major rival.
I dont care how good a player he is, a one year loan benefits Tigers the least.
What you are saying is no different to Slater to Gloucester or Kitchener to Worcester after playing for us for a number of seasons
& we all saw how Slater called everyone of our lineouts.
At the dawn of a new age it just seems as if we have more to loose than gain on a loan deal.
Lineout calls change every season (and in season) nowadays due to the amount of analysis. Lineouts are also pre-called prior to setting up the line these days as well to limit what can be picked up in analysis. Most clubs also have different 7-man, 6-man, 5-man and 4-man lineouts each with their own calls and movement.
Itoje (or any other player) won't go to another club knowing that "Liebenberg will call out 4 numbers, but the last one is the actual call, the other 3 are decoy numbers, listen for the final number, if the last number is 5 that means it's being thrown to the guy wearing the big 5 on his back".
Slates didn't 'call everyone of our lineouts' he was just a good lineout jumper up against an abjectly poor lineout. For a couple of seasons at least I honestly think we had the worst lineout in the Premiership by a distance.
People often over egg 'knowing our calls and moves'. Anyone with a laptop and access to the Prem rugby website can watch last seasons games to note down a clubs moves. Analysis has seen the game move on from "loop with 12 and scissors with 13" looking ingenious. The key is in the execution. Take the Matfield led Boks lineout. Everyone knew the ball was going to Matfield in the middle of the lineout 9/10 throws. Stealing the ball is a different thing entirely if a good jumper, strong/tall lifters and reliable thrower all execute the plan.
Wayne Richardson Fan Club wrote: ↑Thu May 14, 2020 1:08 pm
Loan player for one year, learns all our moves & calls goes back to a major rival.
I dont care how good a player he is, a one year loan benefits Tigers the least.
What you are saying is no different to Slater to Gloucester or Kitchener to Worcester after playing for us for a number of seasons
It's obviously, completely different. Slater left. He didn't go to Gloucester on loan did he? Kitchener left Worcester. He didn't come to Tigers on loan for a year and then return.
By all means argue the case that Itoje would be great to have, if just for a year.
Wayne Richardson Fan Club wrote: ↑Thu May 14, 2020 1:08 pm
Loan player for one year, learns all our moves & calls goes back to a major rival.
I dont care how good a player he is, a one year loan benefits Tigers the least.
What you are saying is no different to Slater to Gloucester or Kitchener to Worcester after playing for us for a number of seasons
It's obviously, completely different. Slater left. He didn't go to Gloucester on loan did he? Kitchener left Worcester. He didn't come to Tigers on loan for a year and then return.
By all means argue the case that Itoje would be great to have, if just for a year.
He's arguing it's no different a player on loan from a rival club knowing all your calls and moving back for the next season than a player normally moving on, both players will know your calls regardless.
Most clubs change their calls every year pretty much.
The only time I like loan moves is
1. They are already the end product basically and it's not a case of us giving them experience for someone else.
2. It's a stopgap to sign a player we really want but is still in contract and we have to wait a season to sign them.
What you are saying is no different to Slater to Gloucester or Kitchener to Worcester after playing for us for a number of seasons
It's obviously, completely different. Slater left. He didn't go to Gloucester on loan did he? Kitchener left Worcester. He didn't come to Tigers on loan for a year and then return.
By all means argue the case that Itoje would be great to have, if just for a year.
He's arguing it's no different a player on loan from a rival club knowing all your calls and moving back for the next season than a player normally moving on, both players will know your calls regardless.
Most clubs change their calls every year pretty much.
The only time I like loan moves is
1. They are already the end product basically and it's not a case of us giving them experience for someone else.
2. It's a stopgap to sign a player we really want but is still in contract and we have to wait a season to sign them.
Thanks RB that is the point that it doesn’t matter why a player leaves a club, or how long he is there, if he is at another club the following season he is going to know the calls if they aren’t changed which they evidently are.