Stuart Barnes - Cut The Garbage

[fleabane]

An interesting proposal for the future of the professional game.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ten- ... 09e6e8f6f2

[LondonRich]

I'd support that proposal, having thought there's too much pressure on top players to perform ~40 times a year (inc. internationals). Every year we see the impact of 6N or autumn internationals on our squad, so to reduce that impact and have a full squad to pick from for every round of the premiership would be a real bonus, in my opinion.

I think I'd miss the drama of the play-offs though. Fondly remember the premiership trophy being presented at Welford Road when I first starting attending games as a child (Martin Corry was not willing to give up his game jersey despite me asking), but I also enjoy the big day out to Twickenham.

The reduced European cup format would make it more of an elite competition, removing the 'easy 5 pointers' from the equation would make it more interesting.

Who knows though! CVC will be interested in maximising return on their investment so I can't see this getting much traction!

[RagingBull]

10 teams yes.
No Play-offs no.

Play-offs are designed for TV, and TV is were the money comes from.

What 10 teams though and how would they be judge?
On sustainability or performance?

Personally I feel that Worcester and Wasps would be my first 2 picks.
I don't think Worcester has the growth potential, and certainly don't think Wasps have it either at Coventry.
Can Falcons afford the Premiership? but can the Premiership afford to lose it's only North East club?
The South west is crowded but all the clubs have a very good base.
Outside Quins do Sarries and Irish have enough to make of the London market?
Will Irish move to London be the making of them?
Would Wasps be better to move into the South east again?

When you judge by attendances
Sale, Worcester, Saracens and Irish are all below 10K average.
You have Wasps who only average 40% capacity of their stadium.

[sk 88]

Think c.24 games is the right number of top unadulterated club games we need in the season, and I think an 18/6 slit between league and Europe is also the right balance.

I wouldn't ring fence it though.

Have 2 up, 2 down into a 12 team second division. Top and bottom swap. 9th in division 1 and 2nd, 3rd and 4th in division 2 play off for the final place.

Assumes the team in 9th wouldn't get to the European final, small likelihood but big problem if it happened. Maybe scrap that bit of the idea.

If we had this plus an international season in March, April and May of 8 or 9 games that is a sustainable season for the top players, which a good balance between club & country and between domestic and European rugby. No overlap means the Prem squads could be smaller in size (potentially 45 rather than pushing 60 based on the number of players we actually use outside international periods), which would free c.180 players to play in the beefed up Championship, that's another 4 squads worth of players on top of the extra 2 teams from the Prem relegated, so the quality would be improved.

For the non-internationals we could run a development league for players during the March, April, May international period for guys not in the main squads, so your 18-23 year olds, lesser used guys in your above squad of 45 etc.

I think that could be really good as a structure we could then all develop, away from the internal tensions as internationals in the middle of the season are gone, there is no reason for clubs to be funny about releasing T2 players, there are no internationals to distort the league OR draw focus from the games. 6N is still more or less in the same slot it always has been so can still be the jewel and engine for people that like that. Lions tours have their space, RWC has its space.

With a second division that is worthwhile us club fans would actually get more rugby to watch while people that only want "the best" get better too.

As you can tell I really like this structure a lot.

[Traveller]

It's an excellent article and proposal. I just wish the newspapers would refrain from using any photographs of Saracens celebrating their Premiership wins.

[Dangerous4]

I like the idea but implementing it would be difficult, and probably bring legal challenges with it.

[h's dad]

Keep relegation/promotion and the smaller Premiership could help deliver a genuinely professional second tier with several teams capable of a decent performance in the Premiership and improve the overall quality of rugby in this country. Reduce overplaying and improve quality and player welfare.

[BFG]

Keep relegation/promotion and the smaller Premiership could help deliver a genuinely professional second tier with several teams capable of a decent performance in the Premiership and improve the overall quality of rugby in this country. Reduce overplaying and improve quality and player welfare.

I'd go along with this.
Sort out the domestic foundations.
I'd also like to see a domestic cup competition of real value with an annual pre-season super cup type fixture between league and cup winners.

[Cagey Tiger]

10 teams yes.
No Play-offs no.

Play-offs are designed for TV, and TV is were the money comes from.

What 10 teams though and how would they be judge?
On sustainability or performance?

Personally I feel that Worcester and Wasps would be my first 2 picks.
I don't think Worcester has the growth potential, and certainly don't think Wasps have it either at Coventry.
Can Falcons afford the Premiership? but can the Premiership afford to lose it's only North East club?
The South west is crowded but all the clubs have a very good base.
Outside Quins do Sarries and Irish have enough to make of the London market?
Will Irish move to London be the making of them?
Would Wasps be better to move into the South east again?

When you judge by attendances
Sale, Worcester, Saracens and Irish are all below 10K average.
You have Wasps who only average 40% capacity of their stadium.

Barnes had assumed, for the sake of the article, that 3 clubs had gone bust.

[Cagey Tiger]

It's an excellent article and proposal. I just wish the newspapers would refrain from using any photographs of Saracens celebrating their Premiership wins.

And not just newspapers. I watched the Tigers games shown by BT Sport the previous two weekends. The start and end of the ad breaks were showing Sarries players with a trophy

[JP14]

Keep relegation/promotion and the smaller Premiership could help deliver a genuinely professional second tier with several teams capable of a decent performance in the Premiership and improve the overall quality of rugby in this country. Reduce overplaying and improve quality and player welfare.

I agree with this but might be too sensible for the likes of Premiership Rugby and the RFU.

[johnthegriff]

Cut two teams from the Premiership and you have two fewer matches on your season ticket reducing it's value and of course the club has reduced its sales opportunities by a significant percentage. Costs will probably not reduce by the same margin so prices will have to increase to make up the difference, I just cannot see that being good in the long term.
I think we should have a 14 team Premiership with two up and two down, if that could be adjusted to a 28 team two division Premiership with TV funding covering both divisions this could enable clubs in the lower tier to be fully professional. I would abandon the Premier Cup and replace it with an under 23 competition ( with an allowance for say 4 over age players) to give development players game time. With Brexit taking place I would think we could legally limit the number of non British in the squads so developing our own national rugby talent and ensuring that foreign born players are of a standing that will add to our game not just run of the mill squad players.
Every effort should be made to avoid international game clashes with Premiership fixtures, a trophy should be awarded for top of the league and for financial reasons there should be a play-off at the season end with the major trophy.
I also agree that there should be a limit on the number of top level games (or minutes) played by each player to prevent burn out, this may mean clubs having larger squads and possibly lowering the wages of individual top paid players.

[JP14]

Although in no way an advocate of Brexit, if JohntheGriff is accurate maybe the foreign player rule will benefit the Super Rugby sides?