Who’s your pick for Lions 2021

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ay2oh
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Re: Who’s your pick for Lions 2021

Post by ay2oh » Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:49 pm

Tiglon wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:33 pm
Interesting that only Dokie has actually offered an appraisal of AWJ's game, while all the criticism is vague and meaningless. So far the criticisms of AWJ seem to be:

He only got lots of Wales caps because Wales haven't produced any other good locks. That isn't even a criticism of AWJ.

Ian Evans was better than him. Ok, but... why? Which part of AWJ's game is weaker? Does one player being better than him make him a bad player?

He's no where near as good as Retallick. Same as above.

He's only got so many caps because Gatland loves him. A top class coach thinks he's really good - is that a criticism?

I'm not saying AWJ is the best lock in the world, I'd probably have him in my Lions squad for his experience and leadership, but he wouldn't necessarily be a shoe in for the test XV. However, this perpetual total criticism of a few players like AWJ is frankly boring and childish.
Why is it childish ? Someone said that he should be in the Lions team and other posters disagreed which they are entitled to. There are a number of locks who are better than AWJ in certain aspects of their game particularly dynamism and if the Lions manager was anyone else other than Gatland I don’t think that he would be in the squad .
A2O

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Re: Who’s your pick for Lions 2021

Post by Tiglon » Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:55 pm

ay2oh wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:49 pm
Tiglon wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:33 pm
Interesting that only Dokie has actually offered an appraisal of AWJ's game, while all the criticism is vague and meaningless. So far the criticisms of AWJ seem to be:

He only got lots of Wales caps because Wales haven't produced any other good locks. That isn't even a criticism of AWJ.

Ian Evans was better than him. Ok, but... why? Which part of AWJ's game is weaker? Does one player being better than him make him a bad player?

He's no where near as good as Retallick. Same as above.

He's only got so many caps because Gatland loves him. A top class coach thinks he's really good - is that a criticism?

I'm not saying AWJ is the best lock in the world, I'd probably have him in my Lions squad for his experience and leadership, but he wouldn't necessarily be a shoe in for the test XV. However, this perpetual total criticism of a few players like AWJ is frankly boring and childish.
Why is it childish ? Someone said that he should be in the Lions team and other posters disagreed which they are entitled to. There are a number of locks who are better than AWJ in certain aspects of their game particularly dynamism and if the Lions manager was anyone else other than Gatland I don’t think that he would be in the squad .
It's childish because it's repetitive, over the top and is rarely accompanied by any reasoned argument.

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Re: Who’s your pick for Lions 2021

Post by Dokie » Fri Oct 30, 2020 7:11 pm

Tiglon wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:55 pm
ay2oh wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:49 pm
Tiglon wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:33 pm
Interesting that only Dokie has actually offered an appraisal of AWJ's game, while all the criticism is vague and meaningless. So far the criticisms of AWJ seem to be:

He only got lots of Wales caps because Wales haven't produced any other good locks. That isn't even a criticism of AWJ.

Ian Evans was better than him. Ok, but... why? Which part of AWJ's game is weaker? Does one player being better than him make him a bad player?

He's no where near as good as Retallick. Same as above.

He's only got so many caps because Gatland loves him. A top class coach thinks he's really good - is that a criticism?

I'm not saying AWJ is the best lock in the world, I'd probably have him in my Lions squad for his experience and leadership, but he wouldn't necessarily be a shoe in for the test XV. However, this perpetual total criticism of a few players like AWJ is frankly boring and childish.
Why is it childish ? Someone said that he should be in the Lions team and other posters disagreed which they are entitled to. There are a number of locks who are better than AWJ in certain aspects of their game particularly dynamism and if the Lions manager was anyone else other than Gatland I don’t think that he would be in the squad .
It's childish because it's repetitive, over the top and is rarely accompanied by any reasoned argument.
Thank you Tiglon. I'll buy you a beer if we're ever allowed inside Welford Rd again!

Scott1
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Re: Who’s your pick for Lions 2021

Post by Scott1 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:47 pm

Here you go then! Never breaks the gainline,a very poor carrier for his size. He is always near the very top for players turned over EVERY six nations! Tackle count is ok but is never dominant in the tackle! A nuisance at the BD? I dont recall him EVER getting a turnover! Decent line out forward,not especially dominant in the maul. Some nice offloads out the tackle but that’s a very recent string to his bow. Plays the ref well,excellent longevity but a top lock? No,not at all! I’d take Lawes,Launchbury,Itoje,Kruis,Ryan,Gray,Retallick,Whitelock,Barrett,Snyman,Etzebeth,De Jäger and Du Tout over him and I’ve probably missed some. Worlds most overrated player and the love in is sickening!

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Re: Who’s your pick for Lions 2021

Post by Tiglon » Fri Oct 30, 2020 9:30 pm

Scott1 wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:47 pm
Here you go then! Never breaks the gainline,a very poor carrier for his size. He is always near the very top for players turned over EVERY six nations! Tackle count is ok but is never dominant in the tackle! A nuisance at the BD? I dont recall him EVER getting a turnover! Decent line out forward,not especially dominant in the maul. Some nice offloads out the tackle but that’s a very recent string to his bow. Plays the ref well,excellent longevity but a top lock? No,not at all! I’d take Lawes,Launchbury,Itoje,Kruis,Ryan,Gray,Retallick,Whitelock,Barrett,Snyman,Etzebeth,De Jäger and Du Tout over him and I’ve probably missed some. Worlds most overrated player and the love in is sickening!
That's much better! However...

In the current 6N AWJ has:

Conceded 2 turnovers. 55 players have conceded more, almost of all of them while playing fewer minutes than AWJ. Those who have conceded more turnovers than AWJ include Johnny Gray, James Ryan and George Kruis - despite all of them playing fewer minutes than AWJ and being in teams that have been more successful than Wales during the tournament so far. Is AWJ near the top for most turned over? Nowhere near.

Won 2 turnovers. Only 13 players have won more. Those 13 do include Kruis and Itoje from your list. You may not recall him ever winning a turnover, but it obviously happens.

Won 9 lineouts, stolen 1. That is well below most other 2nd rows who have played similar minutes, but Wales seem to vary their catchers more than any other team, according to the stats. I can't find stats for any negative aspects of lineouts.

Made 55 tackles. Only 9 players have made more tackles. Lawes, Kruis and Gray have all made fewer. 10th highest tackle rate? I'd say that's more than ok.

Missed 2 tackles. The stats don't give a made/missed % or similar and I can't be bothered to work it all out, but 55 made and 2 missed is pretty good. There are certainly very few with a better %.

Made 7 dominant tackles. Only 8 players have made more, but they do include Lawes, Ryan and Itoje. Never dominant in the tackle? Clearly not true.

Made 3 offloads. 16 players have made more, none of them are 2nd rows (unless I've missed one, happy to be corrected). The fact that he has added this to his game is a compliment, not a criticism. All the best players learn as they go on - Ma'a Nonu for example played a very different game in his latter seasons. He learned and adapted.

Made 87 metres from 25 carries. I can't find stats for breaking the gainline. A few locks have much better stats (Ryan, Ollivon), but most of the top locks are fairly similar. Is that a very poor ball carrier? Not in my book.

AWJ has also conceded fewer penalties than Itoje and Ryan. He has made far fewer handling errors than Itoje but more than Ryan.

He has played every minute of the tournament so far.

So most of your statements are in fact not true. Is AWJ the best lock in the current 6N? Statistically, probably not. But he's still very good and, if you add in his experience and alleged leadership skills (I've never played with him so it's hard for me to judge), he's probably right up there as a Lions tourist with Ryan and Itoje, or at least just behind them.

I haven't checked previous years stats, but if the regular comments of him being past it or too old or declining are true, then I can only assume his stats were even better than they are now.

Interestingly, if you go on stats alone, Johnny Gray is a complete waste of space. Who knew!

Usually when people criticise AWJ they refer to the "love in" or similar. He is about to become the worlds most capped player ever, has captained on 2(?) Lions tours, has an OBE and a law degree - how much more does he have to achieve to be worthy of some praise?

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Re: Who’s your pick for Lions 2021

Post by Scott1 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:43 pm

What’s that saying about statistics and lies? Hahaha rugby stats are very subjective. Are the tackles dominant? Were the carries in traffic etc? Has AWJ ever bettered his opponent? Have you ever watched a game and thought,you know what AWJ had X on toast there? Er,nope! Compare that to say Itoje who has bettered Retallick more than once. Like I said,worlds most overrated player and the love in is sickening. I especially like it when he has an ordinary game but still always makes the 6N team of the week 😂🙈

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Re: Who’s your pick for Lions 2021

Post by Wayne Richardson Fan Club » Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:44 am

Is AWJ at the top of his game now, probably not, is he worthy of his reputation for me yes.

Should be make the Lions test squad next year, no, should he be in the touring party a definite yes, his experience is the kind of thing that holds a squad together, nailed on midweek captain.

Did he have advantages at the start of his career, almost certainly, that doesn't make 149 caps.

I think if he had worn a Tigers shirt, peoples attitude would be different.
To win is not as important as playing with style!

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Re: Who’s your pick for Lions 2021

Post by TigerFeetSteve » Sat Oct 31, 2020 8:08 am

Wayne Richardson Fan Club wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:44 am
Is AWJ at the top of his game now, probably not, is he worthy of his reputation for me yes.

Should be make the Lions test squad next year, no, should he be in the touring party a definite yes, his experience is the kind of thing that holds a squad together, nailed on midweek captain.

Did he have advantages at the start of his career, almost certainly, that doesn't make 149 caps.

I think if he had worn a Tigers shirt, peoples attitude would be different.
Perfect summary.
Used to run around with an 11, 14 or 15 on my back.

JP14
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Re: Who’s your pick for Lions 2021

Post by JP14 » Sat Oct 31, 2020 9:18 am

I wouldn't mind him being midweek Lions captain.
"Our Greatest Glory Is Not In Never Failing, But In Rising Every Time We Fall" Confucius

kk20gb30
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Re: Who’s your pick for Lions 2021

Post by kk20gb30 » Sat Oct 31, 2020 9:58 am

Opinion can only be subjective and the majority of us have a soap box to climb onto ...
but better judges than any of us see the merits of Alun Wyn Jones.
We should all beware intransigence.

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Re: Who’s your pick for Lions 2021

Post by Cardiff Tig » Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:29 am

Wayne Richardson Fan Club wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:44 am
Is AWJ at the top of his game now, probably not, is he worthy of his reputation for me yes.

Should be make the Lions test squad next year, no, should he be in the touring party a definite yes, his experience is the kind of thing that holds a squad together, nailed on midweek captain.

Did he have advantages at the start of his career, almost certainly, that doesn't make 149 caps.

I think if he had worn a Tigers shirt, peoples attitude would be different.
Pretty much spot on I'd say, without the exaggeration either way.

At his age I can't see his form becoming spectacular enough to guarantee a test spot. But I would bet a lot of money that his form won't drop off this year so it will be up to the younger generation to have good seasons (which I also expect to happen).

I may have missed it but was is happening with Itoje this season? I'm not convinced that he will benefit from not playing regularly

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Re: Who’s your pick for Lions 2021

Post by Tiglon » Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:59 pm

Scott1 wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:43 pm
What’s that saying about statistics and lies? Hahaha rugby stats are very subjective. Are the tackles dominant? Were the carries in traffic etc? Has AWJ ever bettered his opponent? Have you ever watched a game and thought,you know what AWJ had X on toast there? Er,nope! Compare that to say Itoje who has bettered Retallick more than once. Like I said,worlds most overrated player and the love in is sickening. I especially like it when he has an ordinary game but still always makes the 6N team of the week 😂🙈
Good argument :smt023

I reckon stats are far less subjective than your questionable memory...

JP14
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Re: Who’s your pick for Lions 2021

Post by JP14 » Sat Oct 31, 2020 1:42 pm

Either way, I feel sorry for him that the Welsh government has not granted permission for his family to attend the game this afternoon when he breaks the international cap record.
"Our Greatest Glory Is Not In Never Failing, But In Rising Every Time We Fall" Confucius

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Re: Who’s your pick for Lions 2021

Post by Scott1 » Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:04 pm

Tiglon wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:59 pm
Scott1 wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:43 pm
What’s that saying about statistics and lies? Hahaha rugby stats are very subjective. Are the tackles dominant? Were the carries in traffic etc? Has AWJ ever bettered his opponent? Have you ever watched a game and thought,you know what AWJ had X on toast there? Er,nope! Compare that to say Itoje who has bettered Retallick more than once. Like I said,worlds most overrated player and the love in is sickening. I especially like it when he has an ordinary game but still always makes the 6N team of the week 😂🙈
Good argument :smt023



I reckon stats are far less subjective than your questionable memory...
Cheers 👍

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Re: Who’s your pick for Lions 2021

Post by Scott1 » Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:09 pm

Wales v Scotland,I’ll make sure I keep my eye on “the warrior” 😂🙈

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