Who’s your pick for Lions 2021

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sam16111986
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Re: Who’s your pick for Lions 2021

Post by sam16111986 » Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:24 pm

ay2oh wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:43 pm
Dokie wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:51 pm
JP14 wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:27 pm


Please enlighten me why.
Where to start!
AWJ - top performing British lock for the best part of a decade. Along with Retallick, the best pairing in the world for much of that time too.
Up there with Johnno as a leader of men and an influencer of referees. Rarely makes errors or wrong decisions, top of his trade in set pieces, deceptively quick around the park, runs good support lines and has very good hands for a front 5 forward. Immense engine, consistently high tackle count and a total nuisance at the breakdown.
Will start alongside Itoje next summer. Despite being mid-30s, there’s no drop off in performance. Good shout for captain too.
Your turn to give an alternative appraisal. Try your best to make it rational rather than an anti-Welsh rant!
Sorry if this is a private argument with jp14 but imo AWJ is now past his best and my lions locks would be Two of Itoje, Gray and Lawes. Let’s be honest the only reason why AWJ has won so many caps is the lack of quality locks in Wales and the fact that he was one of Gatlands favourites
Itoje and Ryan the Leinster and Ireland lock for me. The others are competing for the bench spot.

Scott1
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Re: Who’s your pick for Lions 2021

Post by Scott1 » Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:26 pm

I would have 3 kiwi locks over AWJ,probably 3 from England,Gray from Scotland,probably 5 from South Africa ,Ryan from Ireland and that’s off the top of my head. Arguably the most overated rugby player EVER! Anyone that’s putting him in the Retallick bracket should start watching another sport,seriously 😂
Last edited by Scott1 on Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Scott1
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Re: Who’s your pick for Lions 2021

Post by Scott1 » Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:29 pm

I will give him his dues for his longevity but Ian Evans was by far the better lock ,but apart from that he hasn’t had any competition as the Welsh dont produce any outstanding locks.

ay2oh
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Re: Who’s your pick for Lions 2021

Post by ay2oh » Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:39 pm

sam16111986 wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:24 pm
ay2oh wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:43 pm
Dokie wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:51 pm

Where to start!
AWJ - top performing British lock for the best part of a decade. Along with Retallick, the best pairing in the world for much of that time too.
Up there with Johnno as a leader of men and an influencer of referees. Rarely makes errors or wrong decisions, top of his trade in set pieces, deceptively quick around the park, runs good support lines and has very good hands for a front 5 forward. Immense engine, consistently high tackle count and a total nuisance at the breakdown.
Will start alongside Itoje next summer. Despite being mid-30s, there’s no drop off in performance. Good shout for captain too.
Your turn to give an alternative appraisal. Try your best to make it rational rather than an anti-Welsh rant!
Sorry if this is a private argument with jp14 but imo AWJ is now past his best and my lions locks would be Two of Itoje, Gray and Lawes. Let’s be honest the only reason why AWJ has won so many caps is the lack of quality locks in Wales and the fact that he was one of Gatlands favourites
Itoje and Ryan the Leinster and Ireland lock for me. The others are competing for the bench spot.
Forgot about Ryan :smt023
A2O

TigerFeetSteve
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Re: Who’s your pick for Lions 2021

Post by TigerFeetSteve » Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:50 am

Yeah Itoje & Ryan are IMO head and shoulders above Lawes, AWJ or Gray atm. Comfortably should be the starting test Lions if fit
Used to run around with an 11, 14 or 15 on my back.

JP14
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Re: Who’s your pick for Lions 2021

Post by JP14 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:09 am

Dokie wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:51 pm
JP14 wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:27 pm
Dokie wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:33 am

And clueless!
Please enlighten me why.
Where to start!
AWJ - top performing British lock for the best part of a decade. Along with Retallick, the best pairing in the world for much of that time too.
Up there with Johnno as a leader of men and an influencer of referees. Rarely makes errors or wrong decisions, top of his trade in set pieces, deceptively quick around the park, runs good support lines and has very good hands for a front 5 forward. Immense engine, consistently high tackle count and a total nuisance at the breakdown.
Will start alongside Itoje next summer. Despite being mid-30s, there’s no drop off in performance. Good shout for captain too.
Your turn to give an alternative appraisal. Try your best to make it rational rather than an anti-Welsh rant!
Alun Wyn Jones was never on the same level as Retallick (few locks ever will). His longevity has to be praised, however not sure Johnno inlfuenced referees by being moaning, he left his talking on the pitch!

Against Synman, Etzebeth, de Lager and Mostert we need the best out of our locks next year you're not going to get that AWJ, who's flashy offload once every 150 minutes won't make a difference against the Boks. I'm not counting on him being a Simon Shaw type figure either as he's not an enforcer. If he's fit, Gatland will select him, but as captain? Not sure on that one. Even you can't deny he's been the subject of favouritism.

I think it's uncalled for to say that my opinion of AWJ is anti-Welsh, I have great admiration for many Welsh players... Ken Owens, Tipuric, G. Jenkins, Gareth Thomas, Stephen Jones, Josh Navidi, Jonathan Davies, Liam Williams etc.
"Our Greatest Glory Is Not In Never Failing, But In Rising Every Time We Fall" Confucius

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Re: Who’s your pick for Lions 2021

Post by Cardiff Tig » Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:53 am

It's funny how people criticise captains of opposing teams for moaning etc when they are just being incredibly effective. It's not moaning, it's managing the ref extremely well. I used to hate Dallaglio for the same reason with Wasps, doesn't mean he wasn't an excellent captain. You don't get chosen to lead sides repeatedly if you're not good at it. It would clearly show if an international captain wasn't up to the job, and the other 22 guys would certainly have something to say about it.

AWJ was/is an excellent player, to suggest he isn't is frankly biased. You don't get to play for the Lions repeatedly by favoritism - Gatland would never reduce his chances of winning a series just to play his favourite player. That being said, I wouldn't put him in the bracket of Retallick or Itoje, they really are top class players. I also don't think he should necessarily be picked for the SA tour, although maybe he'll surprise me and have a blinder of a season but he is coming to the end of his career and the SA pack is going to be hefty!

Scott1
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Re: Who’s your pick for Lions 2021

Post by Scott1 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:43 am

I remember the last time AWJ was in SA with The Lions haha ,Matfield and Botha treated him like a small child and Shaw had to come on 😂

Dokie
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Re: Who’s your pick for Lions 2021

Post by Dokie » Fri Oct 30, 2020 12:45 pm

Scott1 wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:26 pm
I would have 3 kiwi locks over AWJ,probably 3 from England,Gray from Scotland,probably 5 from South Africa ,Ryan from Ireland and that’s off the top of my head. Arguably the most overated rugby player EVER! Anyone that’s putting him in the Retallick bracket should start watching another sport,seriously 😂
Others have said it before and I'll say it now. Scott, you're so full of sh** !

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Re: Who’s your pick for Lions 2021

Post by Dokie » Fri Oct 30, 2020 12:49 pm

JP14 wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:09 am
Dokie wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:51 pm
JP14 wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:27 pm


Please enlighten me why.
Where to start!
AWJ - top performing British lock for the best part of a decade. Along with Retallick, the best pairing in the world for much of that time too.
Up there with Johnno as a leader of men and an influencer of referees. Rarely makes errors or wrong decisions, top of his trade in set pieces, deceptively quick around the park, runs good support lines and has very good hands for a front 5 forward. Immense engine, consistently high tackle count and a total nuisance at the breakdown.
Will start alongside Itoje next summer. Despite being mid-30s, there’s no drop off in performance. Good shout for captain too.
Your turn to give an alternative appraisal. Try your best to make it rational rather than an anti-Welsh rant!
Alun Wyn Jones was never on the same level as Retallick (few locks ever will). His longevity has to be praised, however not sure Johnno inlfuenced referees by being moaning, he left his talking on the pitch!

Against Synman, Etzebeth, de Lager and Mostert we need the best out of our locks next year you're not going to get that AWJ, who's flashy offload once every 150 minutes won't make a difference against the Boks. I'm not counting on him being a Simon Shaw type figure either as he's not an enforcer. If he's fit, Gatland will select him, but as captain? Not sure on that one. Even you can't deny he's been the subject of favouritism.

I think it's uncalled for to say that my opinion of AWJ is anti-Welsh, I have great admiration for many Welsh players... Ken Owens, Tipuric, G. Jenkins, Gareth Thomas, Stephen Jones, Josh Navidi, Jonathan Davies, Liam Williams etc.
I love the way you've all lined up to have a pop over this. I'll park it until the summer and remind you smugly after we've beaten SA 3-0, possibly with AWJ as captain and he's been voted man of the series. I'll raise a glass to each and every one as you eat an extra large portion of humble pie!!

JP14
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Re: Who’s your pick for Lions 2021

Post by JP14 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 12:58 pm

You're the one living on cloud cuckoo land if you think we're beating the Boks 3-0, I will eat my humble pie if need be.
"Our Greatest Glory Is Not In Never Failing, But In Rising Every Time We Fall" Confucius

TigerFeetSteve
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Re: Who’s your pick for Lions 2021

Post by TigerFeetSteve » Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:08 pm

I see AWJ going on the lions tour as more experienced back up and midweek captain, added in some ways the pass on to younger generations, I think Itoje & Ryan are the best two Lions eligible Locks, both have the possibility to be even better on future Lions tours too.
Used to run around with an 11, 14 or 15 on my back.

SimonP in Surrey
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Re: Who’s your pick for Lions 2021

Post by SimonP in Surrey » Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:20 pm

If all are fit .. Itoje and Ryan for me ... AWJ tours and maybe main 23 match day squad or mid-week captain. Good engine, great longevity and service to Wales but suspect that this next Lions season will be his last international one ???

Heart says Lions to win series 2-1, head say Boks 2-1
Last edited by SimonP in Surrey on Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SimonP in Surrey
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Re: Who’s your pick for Lions 2021

Post by SimonP in Surrey » Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:29 pm

Actually ... thinking about tactics required to beat the boks ... i.e. an 80 minute relentless pace and lightening breakdown play to find space wide away from the big forwards being key .... in that context AWJ is simply not fast enough / fit enough anymore ... he was but not anymore IMHO ... the territory kicking game is not ideal vs boks as they can counter well and keep ball.

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Re: Who’s your pick for Lions 2021

Post by Tiglon » Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:33 pm

Interesting that only Dokie has actually offered an appraisal of AWJ's game, while all the criticism is vague and meaningless. So far the criticisms of AWJ seem to be:

He only got lots of Wales caps because Wales haven't produced any other good locks. That isn't even a criticism of AWJ.

Ian Evans was better than him. Ok, but... why? Which part of AWJ's game is weaker? Does one player being better than him make him a bad player?

He's no where near as good as Retallick. Same as above.

He's only got so many caps because Gatland loves him. A top class coach thinks he's really good - is that a criticism?

I'm not saying AWJ is the best lock in the world, I'd probably have him in my Lions squad for his experience and leadership, but he wouldn't necessarily be a shoe in for the test XV. However, this perpetual total criticism of a few players like AWJ is frankly boring and childish.

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