England v Wales

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Robespierre
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Re: England v Wales

Post by Robespierre » Mon Mar 09, 2020 4:41 pm

Longshanks wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:13 am
sapajo wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:24 am
According to experts on twitter the Ref got Manu's red card 100% correct and had no choice but to do so. The reason being that Manu did not lead with his arms and it was therefore a shoulder charge and he made contact with the head.

Apparently there is no mitigation for a shoulder charge unlike if he had lead with his arms in which case it would have been am attempted tackle for which mitigation applies.
One of the consequences of technology is that slow motion replays, freeze frame snapshots and cropped photographs can lead to conclusions which may be false or exaggerated.

If I were accompanying Manu to the disciplinary panel, I'd be taking a large print of this:

Image

...arms in front, trying to prevent a player already on his knees from scoring.
How much lower would Manu have had to go to avoid contact with North's head? Sliding over the grass, or should he have pulled out of the tackle totally?

The photo's open to all interpretations, but any player in any team in today's professional rugby would have done exactly the same as Manu, wouldn't they?
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Longshanks
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Re: England v Wales

Post by Longshanks » Mon Mar 09, 2020 4:42 pm

To be fair to North he doesn't spend that long on the deck. Considered the speed at which Manu arrived he could have milked it more if he was dishonest. He gets up slowly but doesn't really stay on the floor that long. The Welsh medics racing on is understandable considering North shouldn't have been playing after being knocked out Vs France.

I agree that Manu first contact appears to be arm on shoulder. Unfortunately the ref couldn't see a screen so as soon as the TMO said shoulder to head and no arms. Ref has literally no choice in what to do. TMO had an absolutely shocking game.
A very fair summary. I think it was also apparent from the exchange between George and Manu as the latter left the field that there's genuine respect between the pair of them.

Noggs
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Re: England v Wales

Post by Noggs » Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:59 pm

North falls into the contact without which Manu would probably have made a good legal tackle with s degree of arm wrap. Clearly a strike to the head was not intentional but the law says that the responsibility rest with the tackler. Hence, the decision on field was probably correct.

Hopefully there will be some mitigation presented at the hearing and the ban will not be for too long.
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RichieB
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Re: England v Wales

Post by RichieB » Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:22 pm

I did feel sorry for Manu, but I think if it had happened to one of our players I would be calling for a red, so I can't get too outraged. As others have said, I sincerely hope the punishment fits the 'crime' rather than just trot out the same ban.

The annoying thing for me is the lack of consistency when we clearly saw other illegal tackles (Parkes for example) not being punished whatsoever. We've seen quite a few at Welford Road over recent weeks as well. Tough on the referee as you can't expect them to see everything - perhaps the touch judges need to take more responsibility for calling suspected foul play.

Downsouth
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Re: England v Wales

Post by Downsouth » Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:59 pm

In his reasoning for a red the ref said he had never chosen to use his arms. Looked to me that if north hadn't been tackled quite so well then he absolutely would have. No one could have pulled out of that. Still waiting for the Welsh citings, again need consistency. By the letter of the law it's red but if any ref has any empathy for the game then it is yellow at worst.

Cardiff Tig
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Re: England v Wales

Post by Cardiff Tig » Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:43 pm

It was a red card all day long, the right arm is never going to be used whatever height that North is, and the onus is on the tackler as to where to other players head is under the regulations.

That being said, the laws of the game seem to be favouring the use of red cards when yellow would easily surfice. There was no malice in the tackle, just a sprint across the pitch to try and stop a try. Plus factor an almost identical hit on Tuilagi early in the match and it starts to get ridiculous. Something needs to change.

loretta
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Re: England v Wales

Post by loretta » Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:22 pm

So, Manu, Lawes and Marler all up in front of the beak. I bet Joe feels a bit of a dick now!

Someone had to say it.....
All I said was ........

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Re: England v Wales

Post by Chobbsy » Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:23 am

Cardiff Tig wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:43 pm
It was a red card all day long, the right arm is never going to be used whatever height that North is, and the onus is on the tackler as to where to other players head is under the regulations.

That being said, the laws of the game seem to be favouring the use of red cards when yellow would easily surfice. There was no malice in the tackle, just a sprint across the pitch to try and stop a try. Plus factor an almost identical hit on Tuilagi early in the match and it starts to get ridiculous. Something needs to change.
AWJ should be also cited, for being such a cry baby, lost a lot of my respect on Saturday I am afraid
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Re: England v Wales

Post by biffer » Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:17 pm

BFG wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:07 am
biffer wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:43 am
Tiger_in_Birmingham wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:09 am
Manu's was a red all day long under the current guidelines - first point of contact was the head and with force. Mind you so was Parkes' on Manu that got nothing because he bounced up and play carried on after just the penalty.

Ken Owens' would probably have been a yellow had England not scored as it was always high but not a lot of force.

Marler will get in trouble - whilst he wasn't bag snatching he'll be punished under the same law which is 12-240 weeks I believe; will probably be right at the lower end but not have any mitigating circumstances

Someone (Sinckler? Curry?) got flipped being cleared out of a ruck and taken all the way over onto his back - that'll get cited.

Dillon Lewis' chop tackle on Sinckler was no handed but he ended up hurting himself so it was ignored.

Tomos Williams might get in trouble for a headbutt, albeit a weak one, on Itoje.

Surprised Farrel got in trouble for his palm strike/slap. I thought CJ Stander showed that an open handed strike was allowed :smt002


All in all I thought O'Keefe wasn't too bad with his real time decisions, it was the TMO who let him down by failing to support him for anything other than the Manu tackle

Yeah, the TMO had plenty of opportunity to intervene and chose not to. I thought Manu was in trouble in real time, immediately looked no arms around the head and neck. Ken Owens should have been off for the high tackle, I don’t see why a try being scored excuses foul play. Farrel’s slap was very funny, he got all upset because he got an elbow in the back of the head from one of his own players! TMO set the tone in the first minute when the big (targeted) hit on Biggar went in. Manu did enough to wrap in that instance but Curry went straight in with the shoulder, should have been a yellow. Had the TMO got involved then, I don’t think a lot of the incidents you mention would have happened.
Manu's type of attempted tackle we see all of the time, committed to tackling a player who then falls after the tackle begins, tackler tries to pull out, turns away to avoid a clash of heads, but can't completely avoid all contact and then is accused of no attempt to wrap arms which is just a load of rubbish talk.
Curry and Manu hit Biggar on a kick off, the power bounces him and the tacklers arms are only so long, and they are accused of no attempt to arm wrap which is more rubbish talk.
It was not really different to the desperate attempt by Heinz on Biggar when he scored.
The intent is the same but just the outcomes are slightly different.
I recall a LI player Delon Armitage desperately trying to tackle Jordan Crane with his feet in the 09 Prem final with a scowl of nasty intent on his face, that was real intent in my opinion, no sanction.
Red cards should be dished out for real nasty intent and not rugby incidents, in my opinion.
Difference is for Manu it wasn't an attempted tackle, he at no point made an effort to wrap arms, when the opportunity was there to do that.

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Re: England v Wales

Post by BFG » Tue Mar 10, 2020 2:36 pm

biffer wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:17 pm
BFG wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:07 am
biffer wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:43 am



Yeah, the TMO had plenty of opportunity to intervene and chose not to. I thought Manu was in trouble in real time, immediately looked no arms around the head and neck. Ken Owens should have been off for the high tackle, I don’t see why a try being scored excuses foul play. Farrel’s slap was very funny, he got all upset because he got an elbow in the back of the head from one of his own players! TMO set the tone in the first minute when the big (targeted) hit on Biggar went in. Manu did enough to wrap in that instance but Curry went straight in with the shoulder, should have been a yellow. Had the TMO got involved then, I don’t think a lot of the incidents you mention would have happened.
Manu's type of attempted tackle we see all of the time, committed to tackling a player who then falls after the tackle begins, tackler tries to pull out, turns away to avoid a clash of heads, but can't completely avoid all contact and then is accused of no attempt to wrap arms which is just a load of rubbish talk.
Curry and Manu hit Biggar on a kick off, the power bounces him and the tacklers arms are only so long, and they are accused of no attempt to arm wrap which is more rubbish talk.
It was not really different to the desperate attempt by Heinz on Biggar when he scored.
The intent is the same but just the outcomes are slightly different.
I recall a LI player Delon Armitage desperately trying to tackle Jordan Crane with his feet in the 09 Prem final with a scowl of nasty intent on his face, that was real intent in my opinion, no sanction.
Red cards should be dished out for real nasty intent and not rugby incidents, in my opinion.
Difference is for Manu it wasn't an attempted tackle, he at no point made an effort to wrap arms, when the opportunity was there to do that.

Manu did what he could to avoid North in the short space of time that he had to react to North falling.
It looked messy but it is what it is and a bit of a lottery.
I'm sure that players are now carrying head down more which is probably causing more head banging.
We are hardly seeing any players being held upright and hardly any offloading in behind the tackle which is a big indication of players leading into contact with their heads.

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Re: England v Wales

Post by strawclearer » Tue Mar 10, 2020 2:37 pm

Freddie Steward appeared before an independent disciplinary committee in London on Tuesday and was given a four-week suspension.
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Jimmy Skitz
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Re: England v Wales

Post by Jimmy Skitz » Tue Mar 10, 2020 2:44 pm

strawclearer wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 2:37 pm
Freddie Steward appeared before an independent disciplinary committee in London on Tuesday and was given a four-week suspension.
what did he do?

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Re: England v Wales

Post by Tigerbeat » Tue Mar 10, 2020 4:48 pm

He was yellow carded for running under a jumping player going for the ball, resulting in the opposing player landing on head. Showed no due care for the opponent in U20 match last week.
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Re: England v Wales

Post by strawclearer » Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:23 pm

Tigerbeat wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 4:48 pm
He was yellow carded for running under a jumping player going for the ball, resulting in the opposing player landing on head. Showed no due care for the opponent in U20 match last week.
Rather fortunate to get away with 4 weeks - should have been straight red imho.
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Re: England v Wales

Post by MCC1964 » Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:04 pm

Genuine question: what about Hadleigh Parkes’ tackle on Manu or Liam Williams on Curry?

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