SARRIES FUTURE

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Tiglon
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Re: SARRIES FUTURE

Post by Tiglon » Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:45 pm

Scott1 wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:34 pm
Just found this,how convenient!

Many immediately interpreted this as a requirement that a promoted club must comply with the Regulations for two consecutive seasons in order to qualify for promotion. Of course, given that Saracens must be in breach this season (2019/20), this would mean they would need to comply with the Regulations for two seasons before being allowed to return to the Premiership. On such an analysis, the earliest Saracens could return to the Premiership would be September 2022.

However, I do not agree with this view. Firstly, Regulation 15 places no obligation upon any Championship club to comply with the “Senior Ceiling” (i.e. the salary cap). It simply requires them to provide certain documentation. A “Certification” may state that a club has or has not complied with the Senior Ceiling. This in itself does not amount to an obligation to comply with the cap.
Exactly. I think Monye was to blame for this misunderstanding. To be promoted you have to submit the certificate, on which there is an option to tick either under or over the cap. Some people interpreted the "certificate" as something to say you are under the cap, but it is not that. There is nothing in the regulations that requires you to have been under the cap to gain promotion.

I'm sure the same topic will pop up again at least a couple of times before Sarries return to the Premiership :smt031

h's dad
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Re: SARRIES FUTURE

Post by h's dad » Wed Dec 23, 2020 5:05 am

Tiglon wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:45 pm
Scott1 wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:34 pm
Just found this,how convenient!

Many immediately interpreted this as a requirement that a promoted club must comply with the Regulations for two consecutive seasons in order to qualify for promotion. Of course, given that Saracens must be in breach this season (2019/20), this would mean they would need to comply with the Regulations for two seasons before being allowed to return to the Premiership. On such an analysis, the earliest Saracens could return to the Premiership would be September 2022.

However, I do not agree with this view. Firstly, Regulation 15 places no obligation upon any Championship club to comply with the “Senior Ceiling” (i.e. the salary cap). It simply requires them to provide certain documentation. A “Certification” may state that a club has or has not complied with the Senior Ceiling. This in itself does not amount to an obligation to comply with the cap.
Exactly. I think Monye was to blame for this misunderstanding. To be promoted you have to submit the certificate, on which there is an option to tick either under or over the cap. Some people interpreted the "certificate" as something to say you are under the cap, but it is not that. There is nothing in the regulations that requires you to have been under the cap to gain promotion.

I'm sure the same topic will pop up again at least a couple of times before Sarries return to the Premiership :smt031
The two year thing was a typo/failure to accurately update the previous seasons regulations. It should refer to the immediate prior year and the next or current year.

In relation to Reg 15, Reg 2 requires all clubs, including the promoted club, to comply with the regulations which includes a declaration for the previous year, which if in breach can result in penalties as laid down and it makes no distinction as to league played in for the prior season. I quite like reading Ben's articles but I think he may have missed the mark with this one.

If you look at the latest version, the SCR's have been substantially revised although apart from the SCM being promoted to SCD I'm not sure that there is any improvement or increased clarity although there is a note that acknowledges the misleading typo and clarifies the treatment.

Of course, if there is any doubt as to applicability or meaning the SCD gets to decide what the interpretation and clarification should be so, according to the SCR at least, what he says still goes.
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Traveller
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Re: SARRIES FUTURE

Post by Traveller » Mon Jan 18, 2021 4:40 pm

In the context of ring fencing, the future integrity of the premiership competition going forward, and those who argue that where Saracens are concerned we should 'move on', a revealing interview in the Guardian with Chief Executive, Lucy Wray. Yes that would be Lucy Wray.

Quote Ms Wray, “We obviously made mistakes…………..we want caring to remain important as well. Our community, our foundation, our high school, our fans ... looking after them………..We acknowledge we need to rebuild the brand and actions will speak louder than words.

A year on and repeated and systematic corruption of the premiership competition over many years is still referred to by the 'new broom' Chief Executive as a ‘mistake’ – ‘caring’ refers exclusively to the Saracens community, foundation, high school, fans, - not the wider responsibility to care for the premiership competition itself.

Lucy Wray is right, ‘actions speak louder than words.’ But words matter, which is why Nigel Wray had ‘honesty’ and ‘integrity’ printed on everything.

Like father………………..

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Re: SARRIES FUTURE

Post by jgriffin » Mon Jan 18, 2021 4:58 pm

Traveller wrote:
Mon Jan 18, 2021 4:40 pm
In the context of ring fencing, the future integrity of the premiership competition going forward, and those who argue that where Saracens are concerned we should 'move on', a revealing interview in the Guardian with Chief Executive, Lucy Wray. Yes that would be Lucy Wray.

Quote Ms Wray, “We obviously made mistakes…………..we want caring to remain important as well. Our community, our foundation, our high school, our fans ... looking after them………..We acknowledge we need to rebuild the brand and actions will speak louder than words.

A year on and repeated and systematic corruption of the premiership competition over many years is still referred to by the 'new broom' Chief Executive as a ‘mistake’ – ‘caring’ refers exclusively to the Saracens community, foundation, high school, fans, - not the wider responsibility to care for the premiership competition itself.

Lucy Wray is right, ‘actions speak louder than words.’ But words matter, which is why Nigel Wray had ‘honesty’ and ‘integrity’ printed on everything.

Like father………………..
Whenever anyone says 'move on' ...'mistake'....I look for the next scam. History matters.
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Jeremy Anderson
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Re: SARRIES FUTURE

Post by Jeremy Anderson » Mon Jan 18, 2021 6:00 pm

Traveller wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 1:21 pm
Longshanks wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:53 pm
wellstiger wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:48 pm
No movement of key players either.No noise of players wishing to move. This may not occur until after 6N.
But whilst still at the club the club is still breaching. :smt018
Unless a significant number of players have accepted large, voluntary pay cuts in return for ......who knows what?
A farm in South Africa. Oh! no they'd never do that.
Actually the Sarries model was I believe expensive houses (circa £1M) on a private golf club outside of Cape Town which I was told belonged to Mr Wray. The new Sale head coach has already said he plans to bring the Sarries approach to Sale!!
Jez

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Tiglon
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Re: SARRIES FUTURE

Post by Tiglon » Mon Jan 18, 2021 7:23 pm

My original post here was deleted, so I'll offer an abbreviated version.

Our own club leadership uses exactly the same kind of language. People in these positions in all walks of life do. It's patronising, calculated and insincere.

What's new?

Dangerous4
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Re: SARRIES FUTURE

Post by Dangerous4 » Mon Jan 18, 2021 7:41 pm

If the Championship is continually hampered by Covid, what are Sarries chances of promotion, in what would become a lottery?

Points handed out on the basis of which club cannot fulfill a fixture, could mean anyone is likely to be promoted. Where would that leave "The Cheats"? :smt017

Traveller
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Re: SARRIES FUTURE

Post by Traveller » Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:19 pm

Dangerous4 wrote:
Mon Jan 18, 2021 7:41 pm
If the Championship is continually hampered by Covid, what are Sarries chances of promotion, in what would become a lottery?

Points handed out on the basis of which club cannot fulfill a fixture, could mean anyone is likely to be promoted. Where would that leave "The Cheats"? :smt017
They didn't 'cheat', they just made a 'mistake.'

Old Hob
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Re: SARRIES FUTURE

Post by Old Hob » Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:00 pm

The Times is suggesting 13 clubs this year and 14 the year after. All the pundits (the establishment) seem to assume that Saracens will be back and they seem to welcome it. I don't. This season is extraordinary so punishment has not been served.
Omnia dicta fortiora si dicta Latina

VernonAtrium
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Re: SARRIES FUTURE

Post by VernonAtrium » Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:35 pm

Games that do take place can only be enjoyed as individual events, nothing more. All sporting competitions, leagues and the like are meaningless while Covid rules the playing field.
'Dusty Hare was / is a farmer as well. Sheep basically as far as I can remember.'

ourla
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Re: SARRIES FUTURE

Post by ourla » Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:07 am

VernonAtrium wrote:
Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:35 pm
Games that do take place can only be enjoyed as individual events, nothing more. All sporting competitions, leagues and the like are meaningless while Covid rules the playing field.
They are all meaningless anyway in the wider context. There is never a precisely even playing field, they are all contrived. Covid is just another factor in the mix. Elite sport is about adapting to conditions, finding a way to win.
You're either in or you're out

chipnchase
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Re: SARRIES FUTURE

Post by chipnchase » Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:01 am

So swop private house on golf course for bags of used notes taken on a match day and you’ve got the tigers model...

Whether this is going on now I don’t know but it certainly was around five years ago so be careful where you cast your stones.

Scott1
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Re: SARRIES FUTURE

Post by Scott1 » Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:47 am

chipnchase wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:01 am
So swop private house on golf course for bags of used notes taken on a match day and you’ve got the tigers model...

Whether this is going on now I don’t know but it certainly was around five years ago so be careful where you cast your stones.
I've heard a story or two about a very passionate gentleman too with long hair and a beard.

CrumblingTerrace
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Re: SARRIES FUTURE

Post by CrumblingTerrace » Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:32 am

“We obviously made mistakes and we’re taking the punishment,”
She might use some of the right words, but I just can't detect even a hint of actual remorse. Or acknowledgement of the damage to the game of rugby.

I'm tired of Sarries' posturing. I'm tired of being angry at them. I'm tired of holding a grudge. I'd love to forgive and forget and stop repeating the same lines about them, but for whatever reason I am struggling to.

Scott1
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Re: SARRIES FUTURE

Post by Scott1 » Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:47 am

Has there ever been an apology?

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