The constant carping about England (and in particular Jones beggars belief) in my ever so 'umble opinion.
Only two teams reached the WC Final and one demolished the All Blacks in the SF. It was a fine achievement.
They have played 240 minutes of rugby - yet supposedly we aren't developing into a team to win the 2023 WC Final. Yes that's the WC 2023.
They played poorly in France (which is always such an easy place to earn a win) in their first match after a WCF. They then won in terrible conditions at Murrayfield (which lots of England teams find hard to do). Yesterday they beat, what was supposedly a rejuvenated Ireland team.
Previous 6N performances after WCs has seen them 3rd in 2004 (lost to France away and Ireland at home), 2nd in 2008 (lost to Wales at home and Scotland away), 2nd in 2013 (demolished by Wales 30-3).
Miraculously under the supposedly clueless Jones they managed to win a Grand Slam in 2016, and with two perfectly winnable games to go in the 2020 they are in with a shout to win the competition.
Meanwhile at my own club rank incompetence is allowed to take deep root.
Good man, well said
England were made to play poorly by the opposition in both matches.
This is the trouble with the limited England supporter, such is the level of arrogance they can't see their own weakness or credit the opposition with being better!
They came up against teams that would not be bullied, a bigger stronger South African team and a newly Edwards drilled defence.
Seen it all before with this England, Groundhog Day.
But then, this itself is a product of the 'bigger is better' :censored: that infected the game decades ago, and the system that prioritises early developers, not matter how less skilled they are than later developers (and is now ruining the game). Bring back the XV with 3 on the bench!
Leicester Tigers 1995-
Nottingham 1995-2000
Swansea (Whites) 1988-95
A game played on grass in the open air by teams of XV.
Not sure the performance in the world cup final was down to the Sounth African performance.
It was largely attributable to England's selection handing scrum penalty after scrum penalty to South Africa by picking a half fir Macko. Fully fit he is a marginal scrummager at test level. Would he have faired any beter against Ireland yesterday?
Playing a centre at full back was risky and I'm not sure Daly is yet a top international full back yet.
Playing Jonny May when carrying an injury was also a risk that took away England speed threat, effectively leaving only Manu amongst the backs with serious individual attacking threat.
Congratulations to South Africa but they got lucky in that they played New Zealand in the pool stages and played the only way that could have beaten England and England fell into the trap.
Against a much improved France we looked like a side who played like they thought they only needed to turn up to win and got well beaten by a rising French side.
England are a good side but not great and cannot be considered great until they can rise to all challenges consistently and adapt to the different ones posed by the top international sides.
The constant carping about England (and in particular Jones beggars belief) in my ever so 'umble opinion.
Only two teams reached the WC Final and one demolished the All Blacks in the SF. It was a fine achievement.
They have played 240 minutes of rugby - yet supposedly we aren't developing into a team to win the 2023 WC Final. Yes that's the WC 2023.
They played poorly in France (which is always such an easy place to earn a win) in their first match after a WCF. They then won in terrible conditions at Murrayfield (which lots of England teams find hard to do). Yesterday they beat, what was supposedly a rejuvenated Ireland team.
Previous 6N performances after WCs has seen them 3rd in 2004 (lost to France away and Ireland at home), 2nd in 2008 (lost to Wales at home and Scotland away), 2nd in 2013 (demolished by Wales 30-3).
Miraculously under the supposedly clueless Jones they managed to win a Grand Slam in 2016, and with two perfectly winnable games to go in the 2020 they are in with a shout to win the competition.
Meanwhile at my own club rank incompetence is allowed to take deep root.
Good man, well said
England were made to play poorly by the opposition in both matches.
This is the trouble with the limited England supporter, such is the level of arrogance they can't see their own weakness or credit the opposition with being better!
They came up against teams that would not be bullied, a bigger stronger South African team and a newly Edwards drilled defence.
Seen it all before with this England, Groundhog Day.
And your bias is equally as clear.
England were poor in France, there was a massive WC hangover which most people were predicting. Play that game at the end of the tournament and it would be a different story (not necessarily and English win but certainly not a 17-0 lead at half time). They came back to within a score at the end remember. Ruling out England after an understandably slow start against France, hellish conditions in Scotland that meant it didn't matter who was playing, and then demolishing Ireland seems a tad over the top.
England were made to play poorly by the opposition in both matches.
This is the trouble with the limited England supporter, such is the level of arrogance they can't see their own weakness or credit the opposition with being better!
They came up against teams that would not be bullied, a bigger stronger South African team and a newly Edwards drilled defence.
Seen it all before with this England, Groundhog Day.
And your bias is equally as clear.
England were poor in France, there was a massive WC hangover which most people were predicting. Play that game at the end of the tournament and it would be a different story (not necessarily and English win but certainly not a 17-0 lead at half time). They came back to within a score at the end remember. Ruling out England after an understandably slow start against France, hellish conditions in Scotland that meant it didn't matter who was playing, and then demolishing Ireland seems a tad over the top.
It isn't arrogant to write that England made it to the final of a WC and beat the ABs in the SF. You are confusing arrogance with facts. In my opinion it was a fine achievement. In my opinion I thought England deserved to lose to a splendid South African team. My closest mate is South African. I celebrated their victory with him.
England deserved to lose to a sparkling, youthful talented French team. I love watching the French play when they are at their best and I sincerely hope that they have a team that can mount a serious challenge for the 2023. I would like to see the French win a WC.
In my opinion (not a fact) it's a bit early to be obsessing about the World Cup in 2023. In 2016 Tom Curry was still playing for England U18 and was in his final year at Oundle.
England were made to play poorly by the opposition in both matches.
This is the trouble with the limited England supporter, such is the level of arrogance they can't see their own weakness or credit the opposition with being better!
They came up against teams that would not be bullied, a bigger stronger South African team and a newly Edwards drilled defence.
Seen it all before with this England, Groundhog Day.
And your bias is equally as clear.
England were poor in France, there was a massive WC hangover which most people were predicting. Play that game at the end of the tournament and it would be a different story (not necessarily and English win but certainly not a 17-0 lead at half time). They came back to within a score at the end remember. Ruling out England after an understandably slow start against France, hellish conditions in Scotland that meant it didn't matter who was playing, and then demolishing Ireland seems a tad over the top.
It's not bias, it's recognition of how well the opposition have played to win.
With England it's always we played poorly and this or that didn't go to plan or it's an away match so a loss is to be expected and never an acceptance that the opponents were just better.
France have changed and been better.
England plod on with the same old.
I'm sure they'll manage to grind out a 6N title at some point over the next four years and that'll be as far as it goes in my opinion.
BFG wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:40 pm
It's not bias, it's recognition of how well the opposition have played to win.
With England it's always we played poorly and this or that didn't go to plan or it's an away match so a loss is to be expected and never an acceptance that the opponents were just better.
France have changed and been better.
England plod on with the same old.
I'm sure they'll manage to grind out a 6N title at some point over the next four years and that'll be as far as it goes in my opinion.
No one is doubting that France played well and have improved dramatically. But pretending that it was all down to that is not actually balanced opinion. England made plenty of unforced errors - remember Farrell knocked on twice when he was nowhere near an opposition player. That's nothing to do with France playing well. England were just shocking for most of that match.
You've made your opinion on the first game since losing a WC final. Which is your choice. But in my opinion there is plenty of other evidence to go against it.
BFG wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:40 pm
It's not bias, it's recognition of how well the opposition have played to win.
With England it's always we played poorly and this or that didn't go to plan or it's an away match so a loss is to be expected and never an acceptance that the opponents were just better.
France have changed and been better.
England plod on with the same old.
I'm sure they'll manage to grind out a 6N title at some point over the next four years and that'll be as far as it goes in my opinion.
No one is doubting that France played well and have improved dramatically. But pretending that it was all down to that is not actually balanced opinion. England made plenty of unforced errors - remember Farrell knocked on twice when he was nowhere near an opposition player. That's nothing to do with France playing well. England were just shocking for most of that match.
You've made your opinion on the first game since losing a WC final. Which is your choice. But in my opinion there is plenty of other evidence to go against it.
Farrell being average is nothing new, for nine international seasons now he has been average, nine seasons!!!
My overall opinion is balanced over those nine seasons.
He is a career international and not a performance player in my opinion.
He has a hold on this group that needs breaking.
Ford is a performance player, natural talent combined with work ethic, learns and gets better.
In my opinion Farrell looks uncoachable!
BFG wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:40 pm
It's not bias, it's recognition of how well the opposition have played to win.
With England it's always we played poorly and this or that didn't go to plan or it's an away match so a loss is to be expected and never an acceptance that the opponents were just better.
France have changed and been better.
England plod on with the same old.
I'm sure they'll manage to grind out a 6N title at some point over the next four years and that'll be as far as it goes in my opinion.
No one is doubting that France played well and have improved dramatically. But pretending that it was all down to that is not actually balanced opinion. England made plenty of unforced errors - remember Farrell knocked on twice when he was nowhere near an opposition player. That's nothing to do with France playing well. England were just shocking for most of that match.
You've made your opinion on the first game since losing a WC final. Which is your choice. But in my opinion there is plenty of other evidence to go against it.
Farrell being average is nothing new, for nine international seasons now he has been average, nine seasons!!!
My overall opinion is balanced over those nine seasons.
He is a career international and not a performance player in my opinion.
He has a hold on this group that needs breaking.
Ford is a performance player, natural talent combined with work ethic, learns and gets better.
In my opinion Farrell looks uncoachable!
March 2017 Steve Hansen (double WC winning Head Coach) "They've got a team that's got good depth, it doesn't matter if they lose -- look at their lock situation they have heaps of great locks. And just look at their five-eight situation, they have two world-class players George Ford and Owen Farrell.
July 2019 when asked who would be his British Lions captain for SA if he had to pick one now Gatland said: “First of all it has got to be somebody who has got the respect potentially of everyone in the squad. So, Alun Wyn Jones comes to mind at the moment in terms of what he has achieved in the game, and Owen Farrell. Potentially those two players are players that you would talk about if you were picking a team right now.”
Interesting listening to Alan Quinlan, Keith Wood and reading Nick Evans all saying how well they thought England played.
Farrell now 8th highest points scorer in the history of the game. All those above him retired.
But to be fair, what do Hansen, Gatland, Quinlan, Wood, Evans and of course the clueless Jones know.
No one is doubting that France played well and have improved dramatically. But pretending that it was all down to that is not actually balanced opinion. England made plenty of unforced errors - remember Farrell knocked on twice when he was nowhere near an opposition player. That's nothing to do with France playing well. England were just shocking for most of that match.
You've made your opinion on the first game since losing a WC final. Which is your choice. But in my opinion there is plenty of other evidence to go against it.
Farrell being average is nothing new, for nine international seasons now he has been average, nine seasons!!!
My overall opinion is balanced over those nine seasons.
He is a career international and not a performance player in my opinion.
He has a hold on this group that needs breaking.
Ford is a performance player, natural talent combined with work ethic, learns and gets better.
In my opinion Farrell looks uncoachable!
March 2017 Steve Hansen (double WC winning Head Coach) "They've got a team that's got good depth, it doesn't matter if they lose -- look at their lock situation they have heaps of great locks. And just look at their five-eight situation, they have two world-class players George Ford and Owen Farrell.
July 2019 when asked who would be his British Lions captain for SA if he had to pick one now Gatland said: “First of all it has got to be somebody who has got the respect potentially of everyone in the squad. So, Alun Wyn Jones comes to mind at the moment in terms of what he has achieved in the game, and Owen Farrell. Potentially those two players are players that you would talk about if you were picking a team right now.”
Interesting listening to Alan Quinlan, Keith Wood and reading Nick Evans all saying how well they thought England played.
Farrell now 8th highest points scorer in the history of the game. All those above him retired.
But to be fair, what do Hansen, Gatland, Quinlan, Wood, Evans and of course the clueless Jones know.
It's strange the only bad mouthing of OF I ever hear or see is on this forum, why? is it jealousy, I can tell you he gets immense respect from his fellow England players, I just don't get it. EVERYONE I don't care who you are has a bad performance once in a while.
Farrell being average is nothing new, for nine international seasons now he has been average, nine seasons!!!
My overall opinion is balanced over those nine seasons.
He is a career international and not a performance player in my opinion.
He has a hold on this group that needs breaking.
Ford is a performance player, natural talent combined with work ethic, learns and gets better.
In my opinion Farrell looks uncoachable!
March 2017 Steve Hansen (double WC winning Head Coach) "They've got a team that's got good depth, it doesn't matter if they lose -- look at their lock situation they have heaps of great locks. And just look at their five-eight situation, they have two world-class players George Ford and Owen Farrell.
July 2019 when asked who would be his British Lions captain for SA if he had to pick one now Gatland said: “First of all it has got to be somebody who has got the respect potentially of everyone in the squad. So, Alun Wyn Jones comes to mind at the moment in terms of what he has achieved in the game, and Owen Farrell. Potentially those two players are players that you would talk about if you were picking a team right now.”
Interesting listening to Alan Quinlan, Keith Wood and reading Nick Evans all saying how well they thought England played.
Farrell now 8th highest points scorer in the history of the game. All those above him retired.
But to be fair, what do Hansen, Gatland, Quinlan, Wood, Evans and of course the clueless Jones know.
It's strange the only bad mouthing of OF I ever hear or see is on this forum, why? is it jealousy, I can tell you he gets immense respect from his fellow England players, I just don't get it. EVERYONE I don't care who you are has a bad performance once in a while.
England have an extremely good squad but when the pressure is high certain players have done and continue to crumble, and Farrell is one of them in my opinion.
The cap issue hasn't exactly enhanced my opinion either, had it not been so he would not have been playing in such a dominant club side which has helped make him look better on a European level than he actually is (or proved) in my opinion, and I might add that he will take an easy year whilst they play Championship rugby and still not prove his quality properly at club level, meanwhile players playing at clubs within the cap have their character questioned under pressure.
The England skipper didn't know, yeah really!
The hypocrisy around it all is unbelievable!
Imagine Ford with all that quality ball and Barritt next to him at club level, or even Cipriani or Flood before!
