It just gets worse for Saracens

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sam16111986
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Re: It just gets worse for Saracens

Post by sam16111986 »

nasher wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:18 am Other clubs committing the same offence had points deducted why not Saracens. They cheated their way to the final, fielded a an ineligible player why a different punishment?
Isn't the same. The punishments previously were for players not included in the Euro squad. The Sarries player was in the Euro squad and his work permit was valid at the time the team was named. It's not cheating it's an administrative oversight.
Wayne Richardson Fan Club
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Re: It just gets worse for Saracens

Post by Wayne Richardson Fan Club »

There is that phrase about not kicking someone when they are down....

It was obviously a genuine error, but if someone has worked without a valid work permit is that not a criminal matter??

They really should of been kicked out once they were found guilty of cheating in their qualification for the competition.
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nasher
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Re: It just gets worse for Saracens

Post by nasher »

an ineligible player is an ineligible player whatever the reason. Saracens have had a blatant disregard of rules for years but again they get away with it. The sport (business?)is tainting itself day after day is continued mismanagement.
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Re: It just gets worse for Saracens

Post by Hot_Charlie »

nasher wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:51 pm an ineligible player is an ineligible player whatever the reason. Saracens have had a blatant disregard of rules for years but again they get away with it. The sport (business?)is tainting itself day after day is continued mismanagement.
Until we see the judgement we don’t know he was ineligible. Sarries owned up that he might have been ineligible, but the panel could have taken the view he was properly registered with the competition and that the domestic visa issue was a minor error not worthy of competition sanction.
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Re: It just gets worse for Saracens

Post by GETHIN EXILE »

i'm sure the process of renewing a work permit isn't a 5 minute job so just cant believe that it wasn't known well before the day that the work permit was going to expire, to call it an "administrative oversight" is really stretching it. If I was in charge at any of the clubs in Saracens pool and Glasgow I would be banging on the door of the competition organizers asking for a full investigation
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Re: It just gets worse for Saracens

Post by Jacko27 »

I think I agree. If Saracens had won the match comfortably say 27 - 3, you could argue that the brief appearance of an ineligible replacement did not materially affect the result. In fact the match was a nailbiter that Saracens won by the narrowest of margins (27-24) and therefore -even if it was a genuine "administrative oversight" - the result of the match may well have been decided because of the contribution from a player who had no right to be on the pitch.
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Re: It just gets worse for Saracens

Post by Jacko27 »

I think I agree. If Saracens had won the match comfortably say 27 - 3, you could argue that the brief appearance of an ineligible replacement did not materially affect the result. In fact the match was a nailbiter that Saracens won by the narrowest of margins (27-24) and therefore -even if it was a genuine "administrative oversight" - the result of the match may well have been decided because of the contribution from a player who had no right to be on the pitch.
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Re: It just gets worse for Saracens

Post by BFG »

Sarries were possibly busy trying to get their belated maths homework done.
I don't think that any advantage was gained anyway as regarding the player who's permit ran out doesn't he make them worse!
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Re: It just gets worse for Saracens

Post by nasher »

It is not about gaining advantage or not. It is about fairness and keeping a level playing field. If you cannot abide by the rules throw them out!
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Re: It just gets worse for Saracens

Post by JP14 »

So I assume you think England should have been kicked out of the 2003 World Cup then?
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Re: It just gets worse for Saracens

Post by nasher »

If they broke the rules yes and I am English. Being partisan does not mean disregarding the rules.
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Re: It just gets worse for Saracens

Post by johnthegriff »

Rules in sport are often broken, they have referees and officials that decide appropriate punishments, a free kick, a penalty, a fine or a points deduction, throwing out everyone who breaks a rule will result in no competition at all. In this instance Saracens have been guilty of a minor transgression they have been fined, had the match result been reversed the administrative chaos that resulted would have been enormous as several fixtures (and hotels) would have to be cancelled and others arranged, problems for clubs and fans! I believe on this occasion the officials have made the right decision it was an administrative error with no cheating undertones unlike the salary cap scandal which clearly warranted maximum punishment.
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Re: It just gets worse for Saracens

Post by Cardiff Tig »

It was also a different error to previous occasions where points were docked.

The other cases involved players that weren't in the European squads, effectively trying to use 31 rather than 30 players (I don't know the actual numbers involved). The Sarries player was registered, it was a further admin layer below that which turned out to be incorrect. I have no problem with the fine rather than points deduction.
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Re: It just gets worse for Saracens

Post by h's dad »

Cardiff Tig wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:28 pm It was also a different error to previous occasions where points were docked.

The other cases involved players that weren't in the European squads, effectively trying to use 31 rather than 30 players (I don't know the actual numbers involved). The Sarries player was registered, it was a further admin layer below that which turned out to be incorrect. I have no problem with the fine rather than points deduction.
Agreed (except for clarifying squad size). The only definition of the breach that I can see is this one:

3.1 Each club must nominate a squad of up to 41 players. A minimum of 10 of the players nominated by the club must be capable of playing in front row forward positions. All such players must, on registration, be fully and properly registered with their club and Union.

England Rugby say players from overseas must receive clearance from their home union. I haven't found anything about work permits, not even a blanket player legal eligibility statement. I have also not found anything that specifies the penalties available for breaches if any have actually occurred. If anybody has any more factual detail, I would like to see it please. Rather than just jumping up and down from a point of ignorance.

sorry, this as well: "It is the responsibility of the club to ensure a player has the appropriate visa in order to be registered and, where applicable, contracted." but sill nothing on penalties.
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Re: It just gets worse for Saracens

Post by LE18 »

johnthegriff wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:54 pm Rules in sport are often broken, they have referees and officials that decide appropriate punishments, a free kick, a penalty, a fine or a points deduction, throwing out everyone who breaks a rule will result in no competition at all. In this instance Saracens have been guilty of a minor transgression they have been fined, had the match result been reversed the administrative chaos that resulted would have been enormous as several fixtures (and hotels) would have to be cancelled and others arranged, problems for clubs and fans! I believe on this occasion the officials have made the right decision it was an administrative error with no cheating undertones unlike the salary cap scandal which clearly warranted maximum punishment.
No John,

so it might cause someone a bit of disruption we will let them off with a fine then everything will be hunky dory :smt017 :smt018

What do all those blokes sitting there with their sponsored computers do, :smt024, if they don't have a data base that shows critical dates etc etc, are they all just sitting there number crunching, ie "assists, yardage gains etc etc", time they got their fingers out and sorted out their priorities!
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