Bath vs. Tigers - Sat 25 Jan 15:00

[Tiglon]

Whites's call (or who ever made the play call) to box kick in the final minutes was right IMHO. They are on their 22 with a LBP; playing out from there is a risk (turnover or penalty with a kick to the corner) of losing the LBP. Exit with a box kick and hope to force an error is the rational tactical call.

This is a very good point. Keep the ball in hand and what are the chances of scoring a try from your own 22? 1 in 100? 1 in 1000? Play the percentages rather than go for broke every time.

Perhaps some people in here should take a deep breath & realise GM isn't on the actual pitch, far too often over the past few seasons its been the senior players letting us down.

Either the HC is responsible for the rugby or he is not. If he is not, then what is he for?

Senior people get paid to take responsibility. Full stop.

Not that long ago the starts the past two weeks away from home would of led to a thrashing, so we are moving forward.

You have a short memory. Think back 18 months and we had just finished 5th in the league with a weaker squad. A half shuffle sideways does not offset the many strides backwards (in comparison to the rest fo the league, which is all that matters).

Still, Borthwick is an exciting prospect so we will just have to put all our eggs in his basket and hope he can make a good omelette. Or a nice frittata. We've got enough good eggs that a decent chef should be able to make something tasty.

[RagingBull]

Weaker league also though.
Look at the coaches that season.
Bath - Blackadder (Sacked)
Gloucester - Ackermann's first season after Laurie Fisher left
Harlequins - Kingston (Sacked)
Leicester - MOC (Sacked)
Irish - Kennedy (Sacked)
Falcons - Richards (Relegated next season)
Saints - Mallinder (Sacked)
Worcester - Gary Gold (Left the club early)

Add on top of that most club didn't spend as much as they have done now either.

So I do think that talking about us finishing 5th is misleading without looking at the wider picture.

There is a reason why Falcons went from 4th to relegated also.

[LE18]

Sometimes the failure of an offload is down to poor support lines, it's not only down to the ball carrier.

Once you break the gain line and take contact, you have to either offload or recycle very very quickly otherwise the defence will have time to compose themselves. A failed offload might look bad, but it's no worse than allowing the move to slowly peter out because no one was willing to take a risk.

For too long we've only offloaded when going backwards and panicking, it's refreshing to see the players try to do it when we have momentum even if it doesn't always come off. Overall it might have failed more often than it succeeded yesterday, but the first step on the road to success is actually having a go.

The more we try to offload, the more players will be in the habit of expecting it and the more often it will work.

Agree with this. The support is often slow to react to breaks which, for me, is symptomatic of a team low on confidence.

Some points about the game. For me the difference between the sides was Burns - his passing and kicking were a class above everyone else on the pitch. Tigers are always going to struggle with both half backs away - Hardwick is decent player but not (yet) anywhere near Ford. Whites's call (or who ever made the play call) to box kick in the final minutes was right IMHO. They are on their 22 with a LBP; playing out from there is a risk (turnover or penalty with a kick to the corner) of losing the LBP. Exit with a box kick and hope to force an error is the rational tactical call.

TBH I wouldn't get hopes up too high for the rest of the season. The side is back waiting for a new head coach. Players will once again be wondering whether they fit into Borthwick's thinking. The club is still up for sale. All that uncertainty will feed into performances on the pitch. Gramsci would understand: “The old is dying and the new cannot be born. In this interregnum a great variety of morbid symptoms can appear.”

Very sorry but I cant agree with your negativity, an team that is 3 points down with a couple of minutes to go will be trying to hammer away at opposition to try to secure a win, what use is a LBP to us? I cant remember any other team adopting that stupid negativity!

[Tiglon]

It's always relative, you're right. It goes without saying that "backwards" means in comparison to the rest of the league. Whether that is because we've stood still while they've improved, or we've got worse while they've stood still makes no difference whatsoever - the result is exactly the same.

I shall amend my previous post.

[Tiglon]

Sometimes the failure of an offload is down to poor support lines, it's not only down to the ball carrier.

Once you break the gain line and take contact, you have to either offload or recycle very very quickly otherwise the defence will have time to compose themselves. A failed offload might look bad, but it's no worse than allowing the move to slowly peter out because no one was willing to take a risk.

For too long we've only offloaded when going backwards and panicking, it's refreshing to see the players try to do it when we have momentum even if it doesn't always come off. Overall it might have failed more often than it succeeded yesterday, but the first step on the road to success is actually having a go.

The more we try to offload, the more players will be in the habit of expecting it and the more often it will work.

Agree with this. The support is often slow to react to breaks which, for me, is symptomatic of a team low on confidence.

Some points about the game. For me the difference between the sides was Burns - his passing and kicking were a class above everyone else on the pitch. Tigers are always going to struggle with both half backs away - Hardwick is decent player but not (yet) anywhere near Ford. Whites's call (or who ever made the play call) to box kick in the final minutes was right IMHO. They are on their 22 with a LBP; playing out from there is a risk (turnover or penalty with a kick to the corner) of losing the LBP. Exit with a box kick and hope to force an error is the rational tactical call.

TBH I wouldn't get hopes up too high for the rest of the season. The side is back waiting for a new head coach. Players will once again be wondering whether they fit into Borthwick's thinking. The club is still up for sale. All that uncertainty will feed into performances on the pitch. Gramsci would understand: “The old is dying and the new cannot be born. In this interregnum a great variety of morbid symptoms can appear.”

Very sorry but I cant agree with your negativity, an team that is 3 points down with a couple of minutes to go will be trying to hammer away at opposition to try to secure a win, what use is a LBP to us? I cant remember any other team adopting that stupid negativity!

You've never, for example, seen a team in their own 22 with the clock red kick the ball out to take the LBP rather than risk going for the win and potential end up with nothing? Are you sure?

[BFG]

Whites's call (or who ever made the play call) to box kick in the final minutes was right IMHO. They are on their 22 with a LBP; playing out from there is a risk (turnover or penalty with a kick to the corner) of losing the LBP. Exit with a box kick and hope to force an error is the rational tactical call.

This is a very good point. Keep the ball in hand and what are the chances of scoring a try from your own 22? 1 in 100? 1 in 1000? Play the percentages rather than go for broke every time.

Perhaps some people in here should take a deep breath & realise GM isn't on the actual pitch, far too often over the past few seasons its been the senior players letting us down.

Either the HC is responsible for the rugby or he is not. If he is not, then what is he for?

Senior people get paid to take responsibility. Full stop.

Not that long ago the starts the past two weeks away from home would of led to a thrashing, so we are moving forward.

You have a short memory. Think back 18 months and we had just finished 5th in the league with a weaker squad. A half shuffle sideways does not offset the many strides backwards.

Still, Borthwick is an exciting prospect so we will just have to put all our eggs in his basket and hope he can make a good omelette. Or a nice frittata. We've got enough good eggs that a decent chef should be able to make something tasty.

There is no relegation, may as well attack it, if you believe that you can that is!

[Wayne Richardson Fan Club]

Whites's call (or who ever made the play call) to box kick in the final minutes was right IMHO. They are on their 22 with a LBP; playing out from there is a risk (turnover or penalty with a kick to the corner) of losing the LBP. Exit with a box kick and hope to force an error is the rational tactical call.

This is a very good point. Keep the ball in hand and what are the chances of scoring a try from your own 22? 1 in 100? 1 in 1000? Play the percentages rather than go for broke every time.

Perhaps some people in here should take a deep breath & realise GM isn't on the actual pitch, far too often over the past few seasons its been the senior players letting us down.

Either the HC is responsible for the rugby or he is not. If he is not, then what is he for?

Senior people get paid to take responsibility. Full stop.

Not that long ago the starts the past two weeks away from home would of led to a thrashing, so we are moving forward.

You have a short memory. Think back 18 months and we had just finished 5th in the league with a weaker squad. A half shuffle sideways does not offset the many strides backwards (in comparison to the rest fo the league, which is all that matters).

Still, Borthwick is an exciting prospect so we will just have to put all our eggs in his basket and hope he can make a good omelette. Or a nice frittata. We've got enough good eggs that a decent chef should be able to make something tasty.

On your basis we should of kept MOC then....

When GM got handed the huge bucket of brown stuff he wasn't qualified to deal with he has fought an upright struggle against something within the core of the playing side of the club, until we definitely root it out & eradicate it, we won't get back to the job, whether Borthwick can manage that we shall see, but GM could of said no to protect his status at Tigers but he manned up & took the reins, no it's the turn of some well paid players to do the same.

[LE18]

Whites's call (or who ever made the play call) to box kick in the final minutes was right IMHO. They are on their 22 with a LBP; playing out from there is a risk (turnover or penalty with a kick to the corner) of losing the LBP. Exit with a box kick and hope to force an error is the rational tactical call.

This is a very good point. Keep the ball in hand and what are the chances of scoring a try from your own 22? 1 in 100? 1 in 1000? Play the percentages rather than go for broke every time.

Perhaps some people in here should take a deep breath & realise GM isn't on the actual pitch, far too often over the past few seasons its been the senior players letting us down.

Either the HC is responsible for the rugby or he is not. If he is not, then what is he for?

Senior people get paid to take responsibility. Full stop.

Not that long ago the starts the past two weeks away from home would of led to a thrashing, so we are moving forward.

You have a short memory. Think back 18 months and we had just finished 5th in the league with a weaker squad. A half shuffle sideways does not offset the many strides backwards.

Still, Borthwick is an exciting prospect so we will just have to put all our eggs in his basket and hope he can make a good omelette. Or a nice frittata. We've got enough good eggs that a decent chef should be able to make something tasty.

There is no relegation, may as well attack it, if you believe that you can that is!

Exactly! Show some fight, nothing to lose, i'm convinced, with the time left on the clock, other teams would have continued fighting for a win.

[Tiglon]

On your basis we should of kept MOC then....

When GM got handed the huge bucket of brown stuff he wasn't qualified to deal with he has fought an upright struggle against something within the core of the playing side of the club, until we definitely root it out & eradicate it, we won't get back to the job, whether Borthwick can manage that we shall see, but GM could of said no to protect his status at Tigers but he manned up & took the reins, no it's the turn of some well paid players to do the same.

I'm saying GM should not have been HC, you think that means we should have kept MOC. You must share the narrow view of our BOD that it was a straight choice between MOC and GM. Maybe, just maybe, there were other options out there...

I agree GM has had a huge task with many challenges, but if we use that as an excuse are we therefore saying we accept being where we are in the table? I have nothing against GM, I simply believe he shouldn't be HC - a view you seem to share given that you say he isn't qualified, and shared by himself and the BOD by removing him from the role as soon as SB arrives. He is by all accounts a great bloke and a great servant to the club. If I ever bumped into him I'd shake his hand and be delighted to say hello to him. I still don't think he should be HC though.

Do we really thinking GM is fighting against a core of players at the club, or was he chosen because he's mates with them? If the likes of the Youngs brothers are a problem for us (I'm not saying they are), is a friend of theirs really the person to sort it out? How can Borthwick or anyone else sort it out if his boss is their mate?

We all know that GM isn't the only problem at Tigers, but if the problem as you suggest is the core players then how will we ever eradicate it when their mate is one of the most senior people at the club?

This opinion that GM took one for the team by accepting the job just doesn't work for me either. The right thing to do would have been to say "I'm flattered Simon, but I'm just not ready and I am not the right man for the job - there are plenty of more experienced coaches out there who could do a much better job". Again, I bear no ill will towards him for it, it was a brave decision, but it was the wrong decision.

[Wayne Richardson Fan Club]

On your basis we should of kept MOC then....

When GM got handed the huge bucket of brown stuff he wasn't qualified to deal with he has fought an upright struggle against something within the core of the playing side of the club, until we definitely root it out & eradicate it, we won't get back to the job, whether Borthwick can manage that we shall see, but GM could of said no to protect his status at Tigers but he manned up & took the reins, no it's the turn of some well paid players to do the same.

I'm saying GM should not have been HC, you think that means we should have kept MOC. You must share the narrow view of our BOD that it was a straight choice between MOC and GM. Maybe, just maybe, there were other options out there...

I agree GM has had a huge task with many challenges, but if we use that as an excuse are we therefore saying we accept being where we are in the table? I have nothing against GM, I simply believe he shouldn't be HC - a view you seem to share given that you say he isn't qualified, and shared by himself and the BOD by removing him from the role as soon as SB arrives. He is by all accounts a great bloke and a great servant to the club. If I ever bumped into him I'd shake his hand and be delighted to say hello to him. I still don't think he should be HC though.

Do we really thinking GM is fighting against a core of players at the club, or was he chosen because he's mates with them? If the likes of the Youngs brothers are a problem for us (I'm not saying they are), is a friend of theirs really the person to sort it out? How can Borthwick or anyone else sort it out if his boss is their mate?

We all know that GM isn't the only problem at Tigers, but if the problem as you suggest is the core players then how will we ever eradicate it when their mate is one of the most senior people at the club?

This opinion that GM took one for the team by accepting the job just doesn't work for me either. The right thing to do would have been to say "I'm flattered Simon, but I'm just not ready and I am not the right man for the job - there are plenty of more experienced coaches out there who could do a much better job". Again, I bear no ill will towards him for it, it was a brave decision, but it was the wrong decision.

I genuinely think no one else sensible would touch us when MOC got the sack, the problem of player power is long at Tigers, it was an earlier Cabal that got rid of Loffreda.

I am positive in GM being DOR, if the balance works between him & Borthwick...but that would depend on what guidelines have been drawn out. As for player power it should be made crystal clear their point of contact is Borthwick & GM & the BOD should be very short with any player who tries to get round that.

[Ian Cant]

As I earlier posted I too was livid when we kicked the ball away with a chance to win: a) it tossed away not only the chance to draw or win the game but,b) it gave Bath the chance to try to get another try to take away our bonus point.

Sadly at the moment Tigers is the weakest team in the league. Teams now believe they will beat us both home and away.

On the positive side, I really don’t think this squad cannot rid themselves of their poor skills if they are allowed to step up and work together!

I remember George Chuter being an inconsistent thrower but through hard work, throwing practice until he could hit the same spots over and over again,
he improved beyond expectations. Lifters too have their part to play and again, consistency in selection helps. For 3 seasons we’ve had no “go to” jumper so as Matt Tait, Chutes and other ex players have commented on, other teams can target our lineout as Saints(in particular) and Bath yesterday did.
Look at Quins today: sensible kicking and running from deep with a solid lineout. As for the offloading and support play: brilliant.

Borthwick, hopefully, will bring a better organisation to the team.
Next up Wasps: in form, not many international call ups and will come expecting to win.
Tigers cut out the silly errors and maybe we, long suffering fans who turn out week in week out to watch will be rewarded with another win.

[Tiglon]

On your basis we should of kept MOC then....

When GM got handed the huge bucket of brown stuff he wasn't qualified to deal with he has fought an upright struggle against something within the core of the playing side of the club, until we definitely root it out & eradicate it, we won't get back to the job, whether Borthwick can manage that we shall see, but GM could of said no to protect his status at Tigers but he manned up & took the reins, no it's the turn of some well paid players to do the same.

I'm saying GM should not have been HC, you think that means we should have kept MOC. You must share the narrow view of our BOD that it was a straight choice between MOC and GM. Maybe, just maybe, there were other options out there...

I agree GM has had a huge task with many challenges, but if we use that as an excuse are we therefore saying we accept being where we are in the table? I have nothing against GM, I simply believe he shouldn't be HC - a view you seem to share given that you say he isn't qualified, and shared by himself and the BOD by removing him from the role as soon as SB arrives. He is by all accounts a great bloke and a great servant to the club. If I ever bumped into him I'd shake his hand and be delighted to say hello to him. I still don't think he should be HC though.

Do we really thinking GM is fighting against a core of players at the club, or was he chosen because he's mates with them? If the likes of the Youngs brothers are a problem for us (I'm not saying they are), is a friend of theirs really the person to sort it out? How can Borthwick or anyone else sort it out if his boss is their mate?

We all know that GM isn't the only problem at Tigers, but if the problem as you suggest is the core players then how will we ever eradicate it when their mate is one of the most senior people at the club?

This opinion that GM took one for the team by accepting the job just doesn't work for me either. The right thing to do would have been to say "I'm flattered Simon, but I'm just not ready and I am not the right man for the job - there are plenty of more experienced coaches out there who could do a much better job". Again, I bear no ill will towards him for it, it was a brave decision, but it was the wrong decision.

I genuinely think no one else sensible would touch us when MOC got the sack, the problem of player power is long at Tigers, it was an earlier Cabal that got rid of Loffreda.

I am positive in GM being DOR, if the balance works between him & Borthwick...but that would depend on what guidelines have been drawn out. As for player power it should be made crystal clear their point of contact is Borthwick & GM & the BOD should be very short with any player who tries to get round that.

Nail on the head there. If they can get that right, and Borthwick is empowered with the freedom to do what's needed to turn around the performances, it should be a winner.

[kend]

Sometimes the failure of an offload is down to poor support lines, it's not only down to the ball carrier.

Once you break the gain line and take contact, you have to either offload or recycle very very quickly otherwise the defence will have time to compose themselves. A failed offload might look bad, but it's no worse than allowing the move to slowly peter out because no one was willing to take a risk.

For too long we've only offloaded when going backwards and panicking, it's refreshing to see the players try to do it when we have momentum even if it doesn't always come off. Overall it might have failed more often than it succeeded yesterday, but the first step on the road to success is actually having a go.

The more we try to offload, the more players will be in the habit of expecting it and the more often it will work.

Agree with this. The support is often slow to react to breaks which, for me, is symptomatic of a team low on confidence.

Some points about the game. For me the difference between the sides was Burns - his passing and kicking were a class above everyone else on the pitch. Tigers are always going to struggle with both half backs away - Hardwick is decent player but not (yet) anywhere near Ford. Whites's call (or who ever made the play call) to box kick in the final minutes was right IMHO. They are on their 22 with a LBP; playing out from there is a risk (turnover or penalty with a kick to the corner) of losing the LBP. Exit with a box kick and hope to force an error is the rational tactical call.

TBH I wouldn't get hopes up too high for the rest of the season. The side is back waiting for a new head coach. Players will once again be wondering whether they fit into Borthwick's thinking. The club is still up for sale. All that uncertainty will feed into performances on the pitch. Gramsci would understand: “The old is dying and the new cannot be born. In this interregnum a great variety of morbid symptoms can appear.”

Very sorry but I cant agree with your negativity, an team that is 3 points down with a couple of minutes to go will be trying to hammer away at opposition to try to secure a win, what use is a LBP to us? I cant remember any other team adopting that stupid negativity!

Of course other teams take the LBP; the call being based on field position, the state of the team and so forth. If White had run the ball and Tigers had conceded a try he would have been crucified on this forum, regardless of the fact Tigers can no longer be relegated. I think some of you forget how quickly on pitch decisions have to be made. Very easy from the stands.

[OakhamTiger32]

This seasons results are largely irrelevant now. Yes we obviously want to build momentum and climb up the table but the Saracens saga has meant regardless of points and position, we will be remaining in the Premiership for another season.

What I am more concerned about is next season. I know that this seasons results will impact our confidence going in to next season but how we perform next term is all that really matters. To that end I think we should be trying new things and being a bit more creative. I would sooner finish 11th this season and top 4 or top 6 next, rather than finish 9th or 10th this season only to be in the same position next year.

The Bath game was the first game where the ‘pressure’ was off without the fear of relegation hanging over us. That’s why, imho, I was disappointed to see us almost settling for a LBP at the end. We had that game in our grasp and we threw it away. We perhaps didn’t deserve to win based on how poor some aspects of our game were but it was there for the taking nonetheless.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Yes, had we tried to run it from our own 22 and ended up conceding another try and leaving with nothing, then I’m sure people would have slammed the decision. Personally, and I’m fully aware that my opinion is one of many differing views on here, I would have liked to see more adventure. 3 points to gain and a much needed win on the road, 1 point to lose.. easy decision for me.

[BFG]

Although most would've hoped for better the current scenario was always possible post World Cup and going into the 6N.
It's that period of the season where clubs who supporting England players are penalised and those that aren't big themselves up.
For some it's an unsettling period for sure.
You can understand why a point was valued but at the same time a point a game during the 6N is not going to put Leicester in a strong position to challenge post 6N.