Saracens are relegated!

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Dr H Flashman MBE
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Dr H Flashman MBE »

Noggs wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:05 pm
Dr H Flashman MBE wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:22 pm
I am no Sarries fan however there are people’s livelihoods at stake. Not the players as such but the admin staff, ground staff and catering staff. They don’t deserve to be binned off.
Isn't that akin to saying the man who robs your home should be allowed to go free because he has a family to support?

I also feel sorry for those on the sidelines who are blameless but Saracens have gained honors and financially by deliberately devising schemes to bypass the cap and as such they damage other clubs who abide by the rules both in fact and in spirit.

Sorry, but as far as Nigel Wray and his board are concerned I have absolutely no sympathy.
No it is no where near the same. The people I mentioned I would imagine had nothing to do with the salary cap cheating. Some scrote burgles your house, he is doing it because he is a criminal.
I agree I have no sympathy for Wray or his board or anyone else complicit in this cheating.
There is never any points for 2nd place...
strawclearer
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by strawclearer »

I'm afraid that when any organisation gets into difficulties, everyone suffers - especially the staff.

Ask Thomas Cook employees.
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mol2
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by mol2 »

I wouldn’t think that HMRC will be too interested in these arrangements.

A lot of sportsmen and celebrities funnel income through limited companies and have accountants who ensure compliance.

This is a civil matter between Sarries and the league. The teams signed up to rules and regulations. If a team breaches those regulations they presumably are liable to the agreed penalties. Employment law applies to the contracts Sarries have with their players. They could make them redundant but that would not let them replace them with cheaper players as it’s the role that is made redundant not the individual.

This means they would potentially have to pay off their contracts - paying them not to play!
It could be that these players have clauses that means they have to be played if fit so they might have to release them to allow them to continue playing elsewhere.
kend
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by kend »

strawclearer wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:29 pm I'm afraid that when any organisation gets into difficulties, everyone suffers - especially the staff.

Ask Thomas Cook employees.
Indeed. Particularly as their contracts are unlikely to be as robust as the players and directors.

That said I doubt Saracens will need to resort to that, they can absorb the fine without difficulty. Unless Wray decides to walk away or is forced out, which seems unlikely.

Apologies if this point has already been made but the points sanction might not affect them too badly. It doesn't appear they will be forced to reduce their squad immediately and, given their quality and strength in depth, it is possible they could make up the deficit and hit fourth. I wouldn't bet against them winning the title again. It could well turn out they have got off rather lightly.
CitizenSmiff
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by CitizenSmiff »

It's a confusing state of affairs because surely if they play on at this point they're still beyond the cap, and hence liable for more sanctions? And what about dropped points, as a team that's already played them surely we deserve a look it? Some clarification from the RFU would be nice, but history has shown thats hardly a profitable avenue.
RichieB
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by RichieB »

Personally I believe this issue is more than just Saracens, fines and point deductions. This is about morality, ethics and integrity across the whole sport in this Country. I also suspect other clubs to be implicated - perhaps not as overtly or crudely as Saracens, but nevertheless guilty of some transgression of the spirit of the salary cap rules.

Best case scenario is for Sarries to take their punishment, put their affairs in order as quickly as reasonably possible and get on with the game. All other clubs should see it as a clear warning that these rules can not be broken or even bent.
Traveller
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Traveller »

So what happens now if a club that has already played Saracens this season is relegated finishing the season 1 point behind Sarries at the end of the season?
wellstiger
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by wellstiger »

I dunno, there's a lot of points to cover
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tigerssteve
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by tigerssteve »

RichieB wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:19 pm Personally I believe this issue is more than just Saracens, fines and point deductions. This is about morality, ethics and integrity across the whole sport in this Country. I also suspect other clubs to be implicated - perhaps not as overtly or crudely as Saracens, but nevertheless guilty of some transgression of the spirit of the salary cap rules.

Best case scenario is for Sarries to take their punishment, put their affairs in order as quickly as reasonably possible and get on with the game. All other clubs should see it as a clear warning that these rules can not be broken or even bent.
It's back to the old days of ' boot money', which was solved by turning the game professional. In the end, the salary cap will go and it will be like round ball football; every man for himself.
drc_007
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by drc_007 »

Comment from Sexton

There is no punishment for Saracens in Europe because the cap regulations do not apply in the tournament and the Leinster fly-half Johnny Sexton, whose side were beaten in the final last season, said: “I do not think it tarnishes what they have achieved in the Champions Cup. We beat French clubs on bigger budgets than Saracens. For me they are European champions and deservedly so.”
Coleshillad
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Coleshillad »

tigerssteve wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:48 am
RichieB wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:19 pm Personally I believe this issue is more than just Saracens, fines and point deductions. This is about morality, ethics and integrity across the whole sport in this Country. I also suspect other clubs to be implicated - perhaps not as overtly or crudely as Saracens, but nevertheless guilty of some transgression of the spirit of the salary cap rules.

Best case scenario is for Sarries to take their punishment, put their affairs in order as quickly as reasonably possible and get on with the game. All other clubs should see it as a clear warning that these rules can not be broken or even bent.
It's back to the old days of ' boot money', which was solved by turning the game professional. In the end, the salary cap will go and it will be like round ball football; every man for himself.
Have I missed something? I noted that shortly after the announcement of the panels findings, the Premiership table showed Saracens in bottom place, with -26 points, I think it was. Within a couple of hours, the table showed that those points had been reinstated, and they were back to their original position in the table. Was this a case of the publishers of the table jumping the gun, or is there another reason. As there is not a facility to appeal the panels findings, only review, the points deduction should stand pending that review. Am I being cynical? Am I already seeing the beginnings of a weakness in the resolve of Premiership Rugby to deal with the findings of the panel? If I have missed something, I apologise.
Jacko27
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Jacko27 »

They were deducted 35 points which put them in 12th position. That has now been suspended pending their appeal.
Jacko27
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Jacko27 »

They were deducted 35 points which put them in 12th position. That has now been suspended pending their appeal.
Grannyman
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Grannyman »

Dr H Flashman MBE wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:22 pm I am no Sarries fan however there are people’s livelihoods at stake. Not the players as such but the admin staff, ground staff and catering staff. They don’t deserve to be binned off.

It's not fair on the staff, but it is the club that chose to cheat and put peoples livelihoods at risk, the premiership can't let Sarries off because the staff would suffer.
Redstripeman
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Redstripeman »

.. should we be looking at a double jeopardy scenario situation regarding their appeal?
They have the policy for disciplinary action for players, why not this!!!
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