Saracens are relegated!

[wormus]

I’m not a fan, but would next year be a good time for ring-fencing?

Yes that was my thoughts too. Voting for ring fencing 12 for 1 against.
I cannot conceive that Nigel Wray ( who looks really ill in the DM photo) has not got massive influence over his children Lucy & Joseph in this Wray Grandchildren's Trust ~ It would not surprise me if he was the Executor. Cheats not Champions.

[loretta]

I’m not a fan, but would next year be a good time for ring-fencing?

Yes that was my thoughts too. Voting for ring fencing 12 for 1 against.
I cannot conceive that Nigel Wray ( who looks really ill in the DM photo) has not got massive influence over his children Lucy & Joseph in this Wray Grandchildren's Trust ~ It would not surprise me if he was the Executor. Cheats not Champions.

Perhaps just a 2-3 year trial? They could always go back to promotion/relegation afterwards if they wanted, but good luck holding onto ambitious/greedy players for that long

[daktari]

I think Sarries are in real trouble here, will the Wrays still be happy to bail them out when they are no-longer winners and playing in lower division? Its very tough on the fans.

[BFG]

Interesting interview with Kruis. Apologies if it’s been linked before, I only just saw it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=you ... 4_p5bZ4DM8

Apparently it is what it is. That’s all right then.

Best questioning on the subject I’ve seen, definately the bravest!

I do wonder if there is a level of apathy running through the club and lack of recognition with the players that it is cheating and all their success will be tainted by the fact they were playing with a huge advantage for 3+ years

Kruis is not a player responsible for this so I wouldn't expect him to accept the responsibility, he is one of those in the middle.
I've been trying to see both sides of this in attempt to avoid bitterness as there is nothing worse in my opinion.
I think what folk are overlooking from a Sarries perspective is the fact that they employ many England players and potential England players.
It's very odd that England players should present bigger issues for English clubs and it should not be so, retaining England players at English clubs should be made easier.
Leicester should really understand the salary issues for the retention of English players, the more established players cost then the more young lads get let go before their development time is up and are shafted with pathetic wages.
I've heard stories of lads being paid 5k pa, that's just crazy for a young lad who needs to live and could have his potential rugby career ended at any moment, reading between the lines Sarries appear to have resisted this a bit more and the obvious overplaying issues in the English game and European competition, and it's led to issues where they have gone through the top end of the cap to retain the biggest earners.
There needs to be a system in place whereby English clubs are encouraged to bring through and retain as many English players as possible to make them stronger in Europe and to protect players health and fitness in general from issues such as injury and overplaying.
I foresee the continuous pursuit of Sarries as potentially causing longer term issues to all English clubs and players and the growth of the English game in general.
English clubs need fairness but also need to recognise the issues that have brought about this particular problem and deal with them also.
Just my opinion.

[MurphysLaw]

BFG - some fair points there, and I agree re the bringing through and balancing of squads re England Players. it's pretty obvious where Tigers and Sarries have differed though by way of their extra expenditure - squad recruitment and ability to retain better players.
I have lost awareness of how clubs are rewarded for having EQPs and bringing through England internationals, but with the Prem so competitive now, as we know, it is difficult to have competitive squads during the internationals if you do have a number of English players, and I fear that under the current system, more clubs are likely to go down the Sale/ Glaws route and build teams around a core of non-EQPs.

[OakhamTiger32]

Relegation is a fitting punishment for what they did, IMO for as many seasons as they cheated through they should spend in the championship. Its just a massive shame the league couldn't predict what the rest of us already knew; that Sarries would play over the cap this season too and cost us all more points. Good riddance I say, they sold their souls a long time ago.

Agreed

[Cardiff Tig]

I really don't see why the players are being blamed for this. Why would they accept responsibility? They're not responsible for how much the club pays other players. And look at the rumours surrounding Liam Williams - anywhere between £200k and £450k has been claimed as his salary. I doubt the players know what each other get paid any more than everyone in a normal company does. As for the lack of response or comments, what does everyone expect? These are professional sportsmen, it's their job to be able to focus and move on from any scenario. They can't control what is going on, all they can do is play rugby.

[BFG]

BFG - some fair points there, and I agree re the bringing through and balancing of squads re England Players. it's pretty obvious where Tigers and Sarries have differed though by way of their extra expenditure - squad recruitment and ability to retain better players.
I have lost awareness of how clubs are rewarded for having EQPs and bringing through England internationals, but with the Prem so competitive now, as we know, it is difficult to have competitive squads during the internationals if you do have a number of English players, and I fear that under the current system, more clubs are likely to go down the Sale/ Glaws route and build teams around a core of non-EQPs.

Yes I think you're spot on regarding the route that clubs will be forced to go down to stay competitive.
English clubs that are employing established England players and trying to develop young English players are not being rewarded for their good work.
Personally I think that Leicester and Sarries are more aligned from an English playing perspective than people realise.
Leicester are starting to now get their house in order regarding young English player development, Leicester also employ several established England players, Leicester are starting to and will face more of the same issues as they get stronger.
It should be made easier for our English clubs and English players, not harder!
If Sarries are pursued further by this then the big winners will be the provinces and in particular the strong Irish provinces in European competition.
They don't like that Sarries can now beat them.
Leicester have started to follow the Sarries model (which is the old Leicester model) in young English player development, there is a bigger picture here.

[Scuttle]

It seems to me this situation was foretold in The Tale of Icarus. What interests me now though is the team dynamic. I assume most of the players were unaware of the sort of deals available to the few, with the majority on normal deals having bought into the Saracens way. I do wonder what the majority now think of the senior players and leaders, and what they have brought upon all the rest; and how that then plays out in team dynamics and followership.

[Leicestertinytiger]

Surely the salary cap officer needs to resign now too?

[wellstiger]

The thing being - Continuing to breach the cap this season.
Being selective with game day squad doesn't negate the fact they are breaching this season.
Either a flagrant disregard, attempting to cicumnavigate rules or Ostrich mentality.

I feel for the fans -

[loretta]

Of course the players at Sarries knew what was going on! Those who had the business deals set up, and all the others. If someone offers an investment deal that’s too good to be true, it usually is. The likes of Farrell and Wigglesworth would have to have the IQ of a block of wood to not suspect something fishy. As for the others, if the top echelon were being paid partially through the back door AND they were busting the cap through the front door, the lower orders must have been getting above the going rate too. It’s a similar question to the one we’ve all been asking for years, “How on earth can a club sustain so many big name players within the cap?”, with the added bit of “How come I’m being paid so much too?”. Well, it doesn’t take a genius to realise the vested interest in that! To be honest, I’m relieved that the May deal to Sarries is dead, I admire May’s work ethic and would have been very disappointed if he’d taken that route.

You can’t be in a crooked organisation the size of a rugby club and not smell a rat.

P.S. the same goes for the fans.

[Mark62]

The thing being - Continuing to breach the cap this season.
Being selective with game day squad doesn't negate the fact they are breaching this season.
Either a flagrant disregard, attempting to cicumnavigate rules or Ostrich mentality.

I feel for the fans -

I would feel for the fans too were it not for the fact that so many of them were throwing their arms up in horror, when it happened, claiming they had done nothing wrong, and that Wray was some sort of Saint for all the good things Saracens have done for community at large, which they have.
Whilst they were winning they were happy to bury their hands in the sand and ignore the obvious

[Tiglon]

The infuriating thing for me is that if Sarries are going to be over the cap again this year, they must have known that from the very beginning, so why wait until a week ago to start trying to do something about it?

Surely, as early as they knew that this was the situation, they should have sat down with their players and other clubs and said "we have been punished for our offences over the last few seasons, fair enough. We want to be open and honest from here on and avoid breaking rules in future and we need to reduce our wages to comply with the cap this season. Any of our players are free to leave until we are under the cap, if anyone else has any space in the cap and is interested in any of our squad just let us know and you can talk to those players, if anyone needs injury cover at any point, just let us know and we'll find someone for you. If any of our players want to explore any other opportunities we'll have a chat about releasing them from their contracts."

If all that is now being reported is true, then it sounds like Sarries thought they could escape further punishment this year, or perhaps this is why Wray stepped back - he knew they were screwed and wanted to run and hide.

Will he be willing to fund a year of keeping many of their star players in the Championship? They lose a fortune now, imagine how much higher that would be with even lower attendances etc. Would their star players be happy to stay and play in a lower league for a season? Would they even be able to find another club in the next 6 months? Any with England ambitions would need to stay in England - how many clubs would have the space in the cap to offer them comparable contracts?

They might still have failed to get within the cap, but at least we might have felt like they had really tried.

When it comes to the players and the fans, I'm not entirely comfortable with crucifying them. What person isn't happy to take a decent salary? Maybe they knew the club was cheating, maybe they didn't, I would suggest it's not within my knowledge or place to cast judgement. Most players, every time they come to sign a contract, will likely have offers from a range of clubs, all offering different salaries - should they always assume that the club who offers most is cheating? Of course not.

I would be particularly wary of attacking the Saracens fans - there was once a time when it was Tigers who won everything and seemed to be able to afford a stronger squad than everyone else. How many of us worried then about whether we might have been exceeding the cap? You can't blame supporters for enjoying success when there was no proof of cheating available to them.

Criticise those in charge of Saracens, of course, but let's not go over the top and start castigating every man and his dog who once half-glanced at the Allianz. Leave the soap boxes and high horses at home.

[SthrnTiger]

The infuriating thing for me is that if Sarries are going to be over the cap again this year, they must have known that from the very beginning, so why wait until a week ago to start trying to do something about it?

Surely, as early as they knew that this was the situation, they should have sat down with their players and other clubs and said "we have been punished for our offences over the last few seasons, fair enough. We want to be open and honest from here on and avoid breaking rules in future and we need to reduce our wages to comply with the cap this season. Any of our players are free to leave until we are under the cap, if anyone else has any space in the cap and is interested in any of our squad just let us know and you can talk to those players, if anyone needs injury cover at any point, just let us know and we'll find someone for you. If any of our players want to explore any other opportunities we'll have a chat about releasing them from their contracts."

If all that is now being reported is true, then it sounds like Sarries thought they could escape further punishment this year, or perhaps this is why Wray stepped back - he knew they were screwed and wanted to run and hide.

Will he be willing to fund a year of keeping many of their star players in the Championship? They lose a fortune now, imagine how much higher that would be with even lower attendances etc. Would their star players be happy to stay and play in a lower league for a season? Would they even be able to find another club in the next 6 months? Any with England ambitions would need to stay in England - how many clubs would have the space in the cap to offer them comparable contracts?

They might still have failed to get within the cap, but at least we might have felt like they had really tried.

When it comes to the players and the fans, I'm not entirely comfortable with crucifying them. What person isn't happy to take a decent salary? Maybe they knew the club was cheating, maybe they didn't, I would suggest it's not within my knowledge or place to cast judgement. Most players, every time they come to sign a contract, will likely have offers from a range of clubs, all offering different salaries - should they always assume that the club who offers most is cheating? Of course not.

I would be particularly wary of attacking the Saracens fans - there was once a time when it was Tigers who won everything and seemed to be able to afford a stronger squad than everyone else. How many of us worried then about whether we might have been exceeding the cap? You can't blame supporters for enjoying success when there was no proof of cheating available to them.

Criticise those in charge of Saracens, of course, but let's not go over the top and start castigating every man and his dog who once half-glanced at the Allianz. Leave the soap boxes and high horses at home.

Agree with this, it’s the lack of contrition from the top that has really annoyed me. As though If they keep winning games it will all turn out ok. Summed up by Sandersons “haters gonna hate” comment.