Saracens are relegated!

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Yorkietiger
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Yorkietiger »

The fundamental point here, and the underlying reason why Sarries and I suspect others are on shaky ground is that there is no requirement to run with a sustainable business model. The likes of Wray just get out their cheque books and write off dept. This means there is no need to run the club in a financially viable way, and from this many other evils flow.

Sarries are worst offenders, but other are guilt too, look at Wasps, up to their ears in debt.
Tiglon
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Tiglon »

Yorkietiger wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:23 pm The fundamental point here, and the underlying reason why Sarries and I suspect others are on shaky ground is that there is no requirement to run with a sustainable business model. The likes of Wray just get out their cheque books and write off dept. This means there is no need to run the club in a financially viable way, and from this many other evils flow.

Sarries are worst offenders, but other are guilt too, look at Wasps, up to their ears in debt.
Perhaps the financial fair play regulations in football could be used as inspiration. Would make life easy for Tigers with, I think, by far the highest annual turnover.
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Traveller »

BFG wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:00 am
DeadlyDunc wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:21 pm
teds wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:02 pm Interesting interview with Kruis. Apologies if it’s been linked before, I only just saw it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=you ... 4_p5bZ4DM8

Apparently it is what it is. That’s all right then.
Best questioning on the subject I’ve seen, definately the bravest!

I do wonder if there is a level of apathy running through the club and lack of recognition with the players that it is cheating and all their success will be tainted by the fact they were playing with a huge advantage for 3+ years
Kruis is not a player responsible for this so I wouldn't expect him to accept the responsibility, he is one of those in the middle.
I've been trying to see both sides of this in attempt to avoid bitterness as there is nothing worse in my opinion.
I think what folk are overlooking from a Sarries perspective is the fact that they employ many England players and potential England players.
It's very odd that England players should present bigger issues for English clubs and it should not be so, retaining England players at English clubs should be made easier.
Leicester should really understand the salary issues for the retention of English players, the more established players cost then the more young lads get let go before their development time is up and are shafted with pathetic wages.
I've heard stories of lads being paid 5k pa, that's just crazy for a young lad who needs to live and could have his potential rugby career ended at any moment, reading between the lines Sarries appear to have resisted this a bit more and the obvious overplaying issues in the English game and European competition, and it's led to issues where they have gone through the top end of the cap to retain the biggest earners.
There needs to be a system in place whereby English clubs are encouraged to bring through and retain as many English players as possible to make them stronger in Europe and to protect players health and fitness in general from issues such as injury and overplaying.
I foresee the continuous pursuit of Sarries as potentially causing longer term issues to all English clubs and players and the growth of the English game in general.
English clubs need fairness but also need to recognise the issues that have brought about this particular problem and deal with them also.
Just my opinion.
In overall terms I agree with you entirely.

Technically the clubs can already spend unlimited sums on their playing base because of the two marquee player provision. Saracens could pay Itoje & Farrell £100m each and still be within the cap.

The vision must be to encourage, not discourage English clubs into providing elite pathways for English players of international standard and be able to retain them if they want to do so, without becoming less competitive themselves as a consequence.

The sums clubs currently get from developing English players are paltry, when one considers the standard of the international players they are losing and compared to the cost of getting in replacements. I would not have a problem if a funding formula gave Saracens a £2-3m uplift to compensate them losing their England internationals and recognising that having developed them the players will want to be paid the market rate when they become internationals. Tigers would benefit. It just needs to be negotiated between the clubs and then the people who sign the tournament agreement need to be be as good as their word.

However there are, as they say, few things in life more unseemly than someone in the dock, having been found guilty, arguing for penal reform.

Wray operates on a means justifies end, value system, and it clearly permeates every aspect of the club, including the values and attitudes of the players, which is why they simply cannot confront what is in front of them.

However if any good can come from this it must be that it should demand that those with the power to do so will reconcile the conflict you describe above. If those with influence can capture all the intellectual effort that has gone into gaming the system, and use it to make it work for club and country then some good will come out of it. I for one don't want to endlessly be wondering whether x club or y club are breaking the rules. I just want to see fair competition.
Tiglon
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Tiglon »

Very interesting points re England players.

When you think about it, in recent years, of the two clubs who have provided the most England players - one is languishing towards the bottom of the table, the other has had to cheat to be able to succeed.

The current incentive for a club developing and keeping England players clearly isn't strong enough and you can only see clubs being less keen to develop home talents in future.
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by jgriffin »

PRL will have to show they have teeth. They will be encouraged by some of the other club owners/CEOs, and I suspect they will have had and may still have Tony Rowe badgering them daily. It's a mission for that man! :smt009
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Traveller
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Traveller »

jgriffin wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:19 pm PRL will have to show they have teeth. They will be encouraged by some of the other club owners/CEOs, and I suspect they will have had and may still have Tony Rowe badgering them daily. It's a mission for that man! :smt009
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JayC2
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by JayC2 »

Tiglon wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:02 pm Very interesting points re England players.

When you think about it, in recent years, of the two clubs who have provided the most England players - one is languishing towards the bottom of the table, the other has had to cheat to be able to succeed.

The current incentive for a club developing and keeping England players clearly isn't strong enough and you can only see clubs being less keen to develop home talents in future.
If the incentives to have England players at your club were bigger increases/allowances to the cap, then potentially a club like Sarries (or us) would then be incentivised to recruit even more England players and therefore have a bigger advantage over other clubs that could not afford to pay up to or beyond the base salary cap.

It is a very difficult balance to get right.
CrumblingTerrace
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by CrumblingTerrace »

There has been very little, if any, contrition shown by Saracens for what they've done. It appears they don't fully comprehend the enormous scar that will be left on Premiership Rugby when this is all said and done.

I had rather hoped that the moral fibre of some of the coaches or players would shine through, but it seems not.
BengalTiger
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by BengalTiger »

The investigation into salary cap breaches is no last minute matter it was announced at the end of last season Saracens have had plenty of time to address this, it is due to Wray's sense of entitlement and denial that they failed to cut the squad before this season started.
Wray has shown himself to be arrogant and un-principled and a very poor judge, he carries the responsibility for the mess that Saracens find themselves in, though the players and coaches also bear some blame for going along with it and enabling the cheating.

They should start by handing back all the silverware won during the past few years and scrubbing them from their own records this would show the rugby community they are seriously contrite
Jimmy Skitz
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Jimmy Skitz »

Wasps shot themselves in the foot by evicting Coventry, they lost out on that rent for nothing, what's their average attendance?
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Tigerbeat »

Jimmy Skitz wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:41 pm Wasps shot themselves in the foot by evicting Coventry, they lost out on that rent for nothing, what's their average attendance?
Coventry City could soon be back at the Ricoh is what some people are saying, who support the football team.
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by strawclearer »

Telegraph: Saracens players told club will effectively be relegated from Gallagher Premiership at the end of the season by a further 35 point deduction.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... gated.html
Last edited by strawclearer on Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by JP14 »

Perhaps if the PRL took one for the team and didn’t have fixtures during the international break, then there’ll be more of an incentive to recruit and keep EQPs.
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Jimmy Skitz
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Jimmy Skitz »

Tigerbeat wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:48 pm
Jimmy Skitz wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:41 pm Wasps shot themselves in the foot by evicting Coventry, they lost out on that rent for nothing, what's their average attendance?
Coventry City could soon be back at the Ricoh is what some people are saying, who support the football team.
from next season yes i don't think they are allowed to move during the season again, Wasps owners fell out with Coventry's and stopped negotiating, forgetting having another 23 fixtures league fixtures plus any home cup ties played at the stadium would help their finances
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Jimmy Skitz »

JP14 wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:56 pm Perhaps if the PRL took one for the team and didn’t have fixtures during the international break, then there’ll be more of an incentive to recruit and keep EQPs.
act like a professional league? don't be silly
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