Saracens are relegated!

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Reggie
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by Reggie »

Noggs wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:28 pm PRL should change the rules such that honors won whilst a club is knowingly in breach of capping requirements can have such honors removed retrospectively. It is an affront to the competition that their name remains on the trophy and in the official record books. Such actions happen in other sports such as the Olympics where medals are withdrawn and handed to others. :smt027
I thought this would have been a perfect opportunity for Sarries to display some remorse, humility as well as respect for the other teams and the rugby ethos. But typical Sarries, arrogant to the end. Good riddance.
nasher
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by nasher »

Sarries are relegated by choice rather than accept a forensic audit. They still carry on as though it was a mistake but is really very serious premeditated cheating. Relegation is the way out to stop anyone looking closely at the books which may contain other transgressions that they do not want being discovered. They should have been stripped of their titles and slung out of the league. Premiership rugby stinks as much as cycling and Lance Armstrong.
BFG
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by BFG »

People posting this stuff about stripping titles do know that cap breaches by several clubs were overlooked in the past, don't they?
I'd recommend a read of Brian Moore's piece in todays Telegraph!
Crofty
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by Crofty »

trendylfj wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:21 pm Totally agree that the rest of this season will be a bit of a farce - the only way for it not to be is to disregard all games involving Sarries - play them as "friendlies" so as not to affect the positions of all clubs left. Will it happen? - of course not. In the case of the winning the H cup - they can't defend it so an extra English club takes their place but at what seeded? Also, will they be docked a further 35 points just to prevent any outside possibility of them qualifying for the top 4?? What a mess
The problem is that they've already played nearly half the season, you could disregard the points on both sides from those games but if future fixtures are just friendlies then what's the motivation for either side to put out a first 23, save a game's wear and tear, this is then unfair on teams that took the damage to their firsts before Sarries were relegated. The difficult bit is to get Sarries to play properly for the rest of the season as they have nothing to gain but I think the drive and the ambition of the players should see to that...
No, not that one!

Remember, whatever you do to the smallest of the backs you do to his prop, and you can't avoid the rucks and mauls forever...

I know you don't like it when I boo him but how else will he know he's wrong?

non possumus capere
drc_007
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by drc_007 »

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... -loophole/

Lord Myners, a City specialist overseeing a review of regulations following the Saracens scandal, will scrutinise a controversial clause allowing teams to write off wages by declaring “season-long” loans.
Critics claim the rule is open to manipulation as players can be recalled by clubs at no extra cost for minor competition matches so long as they are providing cover for an injured player. Players can then feature in the Premiership Rugby Cup or Shield without their salaries counting towards the cap.
Tiglon
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by Tiglon »

fentiger
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by fentiger »

Tiglon wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:14 am Jonathan Liew, insightful as ever.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/ ... relegation
Indeed, that's a really good read! :smt023
TomWeston
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by TomWeston »

“ ...And to this day Saracens retain a small deranged core of press cheerleaders who regard their crimes as little more than a form-filling oversight, ignoring the potential for even a small overspend to distort the market: a marginal gain, if you like, but one that offers a decisive edge on your rivals....”

Are you reading this, Jones and Fatty Barnes amongst others?
RagingBull
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by RagingBull »

drc_007 wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:46 am https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... -loophole/

Lord Myners, a City specialist overseeing a review of regulations following the Saracens scandal, will scrutinise a controversial clause allowing teams to write off wages by declaring “season-long” loans.
Critics claim the rule is open to manipulation as players can be recalled by clubs at no extra cost for minor competition matches so long as they are providing cover for an injured player. Players can then feature in the Premiership Rugby Cup or Shield without their salaries counting towards the cap.
I struggle to see the problem with this.
Tiglon
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by Tiglon »

RagingBull wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:19 am
drc_007 wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:46 am https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... -loophole/

Lord Myners, a City specialist overseeing a review of regulations following the Saracens scandal, will scrutinise a controversial clause allowing teams to write off wages by declaring “season-long” loans.
Critics claim the rule is open to manipulation as players can be recalled by clubs at no extra cost for minor competition matches so long as they are providing cover for an injured player. Players can then feature in the Premiership Rugby Cup or Shield without their salaries counting towards the cap.
I struggle to see the problem with this.
Very minor problem at most. Do we really care if a player outside the cap plays in the shield or cup? Seems like a journalist desperate to make the most of the trending topic.
Flash
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by Flash »

Torygraph article in full:
More clubs are exploiting a Premiership Rugby loophole which allows them to potentially circumnavigate the salary-cap threshold, The Daily Telegraph understands.

Lord Myners, a City specialist overseeing a review of regulations following the Saracens scandal, will scrutinise a controversial clause allowing teams to write off wages by declaring “season-long” loans.


Critics claim the rule is open to manipulation as players can be recalled by clubs at no extra cost for minor competition matches so long as they are providing cover for an injured player. Players can then feature in the Premiership Rugby Cup or Shield without their salaries counting towards the cap. It appears clubs can face further costs over league appearances, however, initially on a “pro rata” basis.

Bath and Gloucester are known to be among a handful taking advantage of the chance to trim their declared salary-cap wage bill. The rule came to light when Zimbabwean lock, Mike Williams, and Argentine prop, Lucas Noguera, were loaned out separately by Bath to Yorkshire Carnegie in the Championship in September. Williams was immediately sent out on loan after signing for Bath, played for a matter of minutes off the bench in Carnegie’s 83-0 defeat at Nottingham, before returning to the West Country to feature in the Premiership.

Argentine loosehead Noguera was then sent out later the same month, coming off the bench for Carnegie in their 48-0 thrashing at the hands of Cornish Pirates, before returning to Bath the following Monday. Williams has since played five times for Bath, while Noguera has played just once, thanks, it would appear, to the clause set out in schedule one of the pay-cap regulations. Under the rule, loanees can replace long-term injured players so long as they are in broadly like-for-like positions. At Bath, back-row Taulupe Faletau and prop Nathan Catt are on the injury list.


In some cases, up to three players can also be declared as “loaned out” even if they remain at the club. Such arrangements at Gloucester drew criticism by Brendan Venter, the former director of rugby at disgraced Saracens, after he signalled he found it “really hard” to believe the £7 million limit had not been breached “here and there” by other clubs.

When pressed for his thoughts on BBC podcast Rugby Union Weekly, Venter said centre Henry Trinder, winger Charlie Sharples and full-back Tom Hudson had all been declared as season-long loan players to ensure the club stayed within the cap.

“You just look at what happened at Gloucester,” said Venter. “Where these three young players, Trinder, Sharples and Hudson, who went on loan before the season starts for the whole year, to get them outside of the cap. So, how’s that possible? Somebody must have got the budgets unbelievably wrong. No one told the players and you go, ‘Is this legal or is this moral? Can you actually do that?’ A lot of these things, I think, were happening with injuries.”

Gloucester declined to comment on Venter’s claims, but are understood to be confident they operated fully transparently and within the laws. Trinder had suffered a torn Achilles tendon, while Sharples was recovering from surgery at the start of this season.

Bath also declined to comment on Monday night, but had previously claimed the loan deals were part of a “mutual long-standing relationship with Carnegie”.


A well-placed source defended the loan arrangement, saying several other clubs were also utilising the clause, and said the law was crucial to allow clubs without the riches of teams such as Saracens to ensure they have access to talent.

Brendan Venter, the former director of rugby at disgraced Saracens, offered his thoughts about other club's dealings on the BBC podcast Rugby Union Weekly
Brendan Venter, the former director of rugby at disgraced Saracens, offered his thoughts about other club's dealings on the BBC podcast Rugby Union Weekly CREDIT: GETTY IMAGES
However, Venter suggested the rule was an example that Saracens were not the only team using the system to their advantage. “People do funny things when they are in trouble and in Saracens’ case, they are trying now to be whiter than white and say, ‘Look, we told them this is what we did’,” he added. “We lost and we accept that.”

There is no suggestion that the loophole said to be utilised by more than half the clubs in the English top flight is comparable to pay-cap breaches employed by Saracens, who have now accepted relegation after an investigation into business arrangements between outgoing chairman Nigel Wray and leading players, including Owen Farrell, Maro Itoje and the Vunipola brothers.

The Premiership and European champions accepted the punishment as they “unreservedly apologised” following the most damaging saga in English club rugby history.

Rival Premiership clubs demanded Saracens were punished for failing to reduce their wage bill this season, having already been hit by a 35-point penalty and a £5.4 million fine for exceeding the cap in the past three, trophy-laden seasons.

The “loan” rule, meanwhile, is certain to be scrutinised, a source said, when Lord Myners of Truro, who has a track record for calling out poor financial regulation, launches his independent review. The investigation will significantly strengthen Premiership Rugby’s wider powers in time for the next campaign. According to the domestic league, all aspects of the salary-cap regulations will be strength-tested.

In relation to its current loans rule, a Premiership Rugby spokesman told The Daily Telegraph: “The provision for Premiership Rugby clubs to loan players is covered in the Salary Cap Regulations which are published on our website. Each club is allowed to nominate three players who can be loaned for the season and their salaries are then excluded from the salary cap. Those players can, however, play in the Premiership Rugby Cup or Shield without their salaries counting towards the cap.”
Tiglon
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by Tiglon »

Ah, so they can send a player on loan for the season and only the parts were he is recalled count towards the cap. Easy way to save cap space on a squad player.

That does need addressing.
BFG
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by BFG »

Tiglon wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:14 am Jonathan Liew, insightful as ever.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/ ... relegation
It's a good read, but it's not very detailed.
There are too many contradictions in all this mess to make perfect sense in my opinion.
A lot of money has been written off at Sarries.
If someone buys Leicester then money will need writing off and especially now as the sports image could be tarnished.
Everyone except one club are making losses.
If the money stops then what, they've all started the ball rolling on something and it got kicked out of the park, and nobody could be bothered to go and fetch it!
This Sarries team was mostly built from the ground up by hard work from good coaches and players but it went over a tipping point.
I don't so much mind the Sarries team that went towards it's first European Cup, most were aquired young and developed and many of those who were brought in were underused on the fringes at other clubs.
What tipped it was going out and adding players like Williams and Daly.
They got carried away by success and it was too much to stomach.
I don't even mind Skelton, they have made a much better player than they aquired.
Had they kept the home grown picture going by promoting more of the youngsters that make up their Storm team like Crossdale and Gallagher instead then my opinion is that it probably would've been overlooked again as it has been in the past.
Someone should've stepped in immediately when they started to get carried away, we were on it straight away when they signed the likes of Williams and then again when they signed Daly whilst those in positions to do something about it must've had their heads in the sand.
As a rugby fan it grates me that the other clubs were not as on the ball as us fans were and they seemed quite happy to see the money rolling and take their share of it, until their places amongst the elite were under threat.
You have to respect Rowe's forceful attitude towards this situation, when he got fed up of coming second, but at the same time he is one of many who sat back and allowed it to all happen.
mol2
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by mol2 »

As with many things there are loopholes that can be exploited around the margins - such as loan arrangements and that's a matter for individual clubs to decide if it is appropriate.

What Sarries did is somewhat beyond loaning out a fringe player (like Mike Williams). Sarries have a first team of international standard players and almost the same as a second team. Some are home grown and they deserve credit for that.

However one can infer that if Sarries opted not to open their books to forensic scrutiny you are left to speculate that the salary bill went so far over that they not only know that their case was hopless but aloso that it might prove hard for them to demonstrate compliance in time to return to the Premiership any time soon. Purely specuation of course

A year or so in the wilderness, pay off a few big bucks contracts and re-sign some of those players on lesser contracts.
If player X is on say £500k with a 3 year contract but pay him off now after a year "salaried" and a £500k pay out. Then sign him on a 2 year contract for £250k. Over 3 years player gets the same so quite happy and official salary bill cut by the time they return to top level.
They can juggle the size of this year's pay out to fiddle it how they like.

This assumes they have the money to do so, or the shell company has!

Come the return to the premiership all that will be seen is the £250k contract.
Had they allowed scrutiny it might be clear that that all was really done was to front load the contract in all but name.

Not saying that's what will happen. It might be that they wish to protect some of the club officials who were unhappy with the breach but were forced into it.
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

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