Saracens are relegated!

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sapajo
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by sapajo »

Sick to the back teeth of the deployment of the word "mistake" to somehow justify Sarries deliberate and persistent cheating. Mistakes by definition are neither deliberate nor persistent. Sarries only mistake was to believe they could not get caught.
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Tiglon
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by Tiglon »

sapajo wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:20 pm Sick to the back teeth of the deployment of the word "mistake" to somehow justify Sarries deliberate and persistent cheating. Mistakes by definition are neither deliberate nor persistent. Sarries only mistake was to believe they could not get caught.
mistake
/mɪˈsteɪk/
noun
an act or judgement that is misguided or wrong.
"coming here was a mistake"

Mistakes can be deliberate, they can be repeated or happen consistently over a long period of time.
kend wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:20 pm I wonder if the reason Saracens chose not open their books is to protect their key assets in McCall, coaches and senior players rather than there being further breaches they want to hide.

A full investigation is likely to reveal who knew what and when.

If there is no direct evidence of knowledge or involvement they can distance the coaches and players from the culpable decision makers. If direct evidence emerged that McCall knew, surely his position would be untenable and they would be in an even deeper crisis?
Why would knowledge of it make his position untenable? It's something that was almost certainly outside of his control and responsibility.

Opening accounts for investigation is hardly likely to show that McCall or anyone else knew anything. What do you imagine will be found, a note on a record of a payment to Itoje with "FYI, Mark McCall knows about this and is aware it is in breach of salary cap rules"?

Let's focus our anger and disappointment where it is deserved - the people who actually were responsible e.g. Nigel Wray.
kend
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by kend »

Tiglon wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:27 pm
sapajo wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:20 pm Sick to the back teeth of the deployment of the word "mistake" to somehow justify Sarries deliberate and persistent cheating. Mistakes by definition are neither deliberate nor persistent. Sarries only mistake was to believe they could not get caught.
mistake
/mɪˈsteɪk/
noun
an act or judgement that is misguided or wrong.
"coming here was a mistake"

Mistakes can be deliberate, they can be repeated or happen consistently over a long period of time.
kend wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:20 pm I wonder if the reason Saracens chose not open their books is to protect their key assets in McCall, coaches and senior players rather than there being further breaches they want to hide.

A full investigation is likely to reveal who knew what and when.

If there is no direct evidence of knowledge or involvement they can distance the coaches and players from the culpable decision makers. If direct evidence emerged that McCall knew, surely his position would be untenable and they would be in an even deeper crisis?
Why would knowledge of it make his position untenable? It's something that was almost certainly outside of his control and responsibility.

Opening accounts for investigation is hardly likely to show that McCall or anyone else knew anything. What do you imagine will be found, a note on a record of a payment to Itoje with "FYI, Mark McCall knows about this and is aware it is in breach of salary cap rules"?

Let's focus our anger and disappointment where it is deserved - the people who actually were responsible e.g. Nigel Wray.
McCall is the Director of Rugby, not the water carrier. Given Sarries have admitted systematic abuse of the salary cap IMHO it would be astonishing if he was not aware, even if he did not have final authority. McCall strikes me as pretty smart, certainly smart enough to count. Board meetings are minuted, emails with CC sent.

I was speculating why they chose to accept relegation rather than open them selves up to further scrutiny.
wellstiger
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by wellstiger »

Mc Call openly stating that they will carry on until the end of the season then have a clear out( Paraphrasing)

So I take that to read as - Were carrying on despite being in breach - we've accepted the punishment - we'll continue to breach this season- you can't do any more to us - so two fingers to the lot of you.

:smt005 :smt005
Cagey Tiger
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by Cagey Tiger »

kend wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:44 pm
Tiglon wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:27 pm
sapajo wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:20 pm Sick to the back teeth of the deployment of the word "mistake" to somehow justify Sarries deliberate and persistent cheating. Mistakes by definition are neither deliberate nor persistent. Sarries only mistake was to believe they could not get caught.
mistake
/mɪˈsteɪk/
noun
an act or judgement that is misguided or wrong.
"coming here was a mistake"

Mistakes can be deliberate, they can be repeated or happen consistently over a long period of time.
kend wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:20 pm I wonder if the reason Saracens chose not open their books is to protect their key assets in McCall, coaches and senior players rather than there being further breaches they want to hide.

A full investigation is likely to reveal who knew what and when.

If there is no direct evidence of knowledge or involvement they can distance the coaches and players from the culpable decision makers. If direct evidence emerged that McCall knew, surely his position would be untenable and they would be in an even deeper crisis?
Why would knowledge of it make his position untenable? It's something that was almost certainly outside of his control and responsibility.

Opening accounts for investigation is hardly likely to show that McCall or anyone else knew anything. What do you imagine will be found, a note on a record of a payment to Itoje with "FYI, Mark McCall knows about this and is aware it is in breach of salary cap rules"?

Let's focus our anger and disappointment where it is deserved - the people who actually were responsible e.g. Nigel Wray.
McCall is the Director of Rugby, not the water carrier. Given Sarries have admitted systematic abuse of the salary cap IMHO it would be astonishing if he was not aware, even if he did not have final authority. McCall strikes me as pretty smart, certainly smart enough to count. Board meetings are minuted, emails with CC sent.

I was speculating why they chose to accept relegation rather than open them selves up to further scrutiny.
Ed Griffiths has a fair idea of what was in the books. If they would show sufficient overspend (very likely as he was asked to show a cut of £2 million) for Sarries to get a 35 point penalty for this season, then they would effectively be relegated irrespective of whether they opened the books or not. So, simplest to bite the bullet now so that everyone knows what is going to happen and Sarries management, staff, coaches and players can move on immediately, rather than await the result of the "audit", however long that might take. Also it keeps a lid on the full range of their misdemeanours. A bit of a no brainer to me.
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by Cagey Tiger »

wellstiger wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:55 pm Mc Call openly stating that they will carry on until the end of the season then have a clear out( Paraphrasing)

So I take that to read as - Were carrying on despite being in breach - we've accepted the punishment - we'll continue to breach this season- you can't do any more to us - so two fingers to the lot of you.

:smt005 :smt005
Bit harsh that (but quite possibly true). Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

As Ed Griffiths found out, there is not a lot that they can do with the players at the moment. It also gives the players time to talk with the rest of the squad, coaches, family etc. as to what they want to do next season. Also gives the coaches time to work out how they want to approach their time in the Championship. Why rush into something that will have long term consequences for the club if you don't have to?
Tiglon
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by Tiglon »

kend wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:44 pm McCall is the Director of Rugby, not the water carrier. Given Sarries have admitted systematic abuse of the salary cap IMHO it would be astonishing if he was not aware, even if he did not have final authority. McCall strikes me as pretty smart, certainly smart enough to count. Board meetings are minuted, emails with CC sent.

I was speculating why they chose to accept relegation rather than open them selves up to further scrutiny.
Director of Rugby. Not contracts or recruitment. He probably did know, or at least suspect, but in my opinion that is far more forgivable than having responsibility.

Other than Wray, I haven't seen or read anything that makes me think anyone else should lose their jobs or careers over this.

I agree there must be a reason they accepted relegation - either as you say they had something else to hide, or they knew that if their accounts were looked at it would end with relegation anyway so why bother.
Noggs
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by Noggs »

Don't know whether this has been mentioned earlier but I believe if they top the Championship next season they have to show that they complied with the Premiership salary cap rules for the previous two seasons to gain promotion. Hence, they will not be able to bounce back up within the next couple of years :smt041

Also, I question why Bath have released Jamie Roberts with immediate effect. Do they have a cap problem :smt017
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Reggie
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by Reggie »

Please can someone explain how Sarries are allowed to complete the rest of this season with a squad, that by their own admission, is outside of the salary cap? They may have a contractual obligation to pay players, but surely they have moral obligation to every other team in the Premiership and their supporters to play with a legal squad? What happens if they win the Champions Cup?

If an athlete is found guilty of doping would the relevent authorities allow him/her to continue taking the drugs and compete for the remainder of the season?

Sarries have turned this season into a complete farce for everyone.
fentiger
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by fentiger »

Noggs wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:25 pm Don't know whether this has been mentioned earlier but I believe if they top the Championship next season they have to show that they complied with the Premiership salary cap rules for the previous two seasons to gain promotion. Hence, they will not be able to bounce back up within the next couple of years :smt041

Also, I question why Bath have released Jamie Roberts with immediate effect. Do they have a cap problem :smt017
That is, indeed, the regulation as it stands.
I wondered the same about Bath :smt017
trendylfj
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by trendylfj »

Totally agree that the rest of this season will be a bit of a farce - the only way for it not to be is to disregard all games involving Sarries - play them as "friendlies" so as not to affect the positions of all clubs left. Will it happen? - of course not. In the case of the winning the H cup - they can't defend it so an extra English club takes their place but at what seeded? Also, will they be docked a further 35 points just to prevent any outside possibility of them qualifying for the top 4?? What a mess
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Noggs
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by Noggs »

PRL should change the rules such that honors won whilst a club is knowingly in breach of capping requirements can have such honors removed retrospectively. It is an affront to the competition that their name remains on the trophy and in the official record books. Such actions happen in other sports such as the Olympics where medals are withdrawn and handed to others. :smt027
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L Smith
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by L Smith »

It is not mathematically impossible for Sarries to average 4.5 match points per game and finish on 56 points which would put them in play off territory...
Is there an exclusion clause if the unlikely were to happen?
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Tigerbeat
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by Tigerbeat »

Saracens have no chance of getting to the play offs as they are now on -42.

Relegation is the only option irrespective of where they finish in the league.
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wardy
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by wardy »

Tigerbeat wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:16 pm Saracens have no chance of getting to the play offs as they are now on -42.

Relegation is the only option irrespective of where they finish in the league.
Not sure where you get -42 from. They accepted relegation and no further points deduction has been made. All the 'tables'I have just looked at - Tigers website, Gallagher Prem and BBC - still have Sarries on -7.
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