Saracens are relegated!

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Scuttle
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by Scuttle » Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:08 am

mol2 wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:14 am
There's no doubt the salary cap effectively stops England competing at the top level of Europe and it has become clear the reason Saracens were able to compete was that they ignored the salary cap.

The question for the league clubs is whether the salary cap is sustainable or if playing in Europe is sustainable.

Calling Sarries a great side is perhaps reasonable on a European level but not on a domestic level where their flouting of the salary cap was frankly cheating.

Those that adhere to the salary cap are unlikely to be able to compete with the big budget French teams or the Irish regions.
I wonder how much BT or Sky would pay to cover European rugby that doesn't include English sides?
I agree albeit on your last point BT seemed happy to not cover the likes of Tigers v Cardiff recently in the Challenge Cup but did play other Champlions Cup matches with no English clubs involved. If I recall there were 2 of 3 such games.
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Tiglon
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by Tiglon » Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:11 am

Mark62 wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:05 am
Coops wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:27 am
mol2 wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:14 am
Calling Sarries a great side is perhaps reasonable on a European level but not on a domestic level where their flouting of the salary cap was frankly cheating.
But under the rules and regulations you have to qualify from the English league to be eligible for competing in the European Cup, therefore they aren't actually a great side in Europe either.

But I do see the argument that there isn't a salary cap in Europe thus they may be able to compete.
This was always my argument that one leads to the other. Had they not broken the salary cap in the domestic league wouldn’t this have affected how they qualified into Europe, the group they were in their seeding etc
There is some truth to this, however there are a lot of "what ifs". I doubt many would argue that Sarries would not have qualified for the Champions Cup if they had played within the cap. Yes, they may have been seeded differently, but they didn't win the tournament by avoiding the best teams.

I think it's a bit of a stretch to say they do not deserve their European trophies, none of their domestic cheating gave them any advantage over the likes of Leinster and the French clubs.

loretta
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by loretta » Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:05 pm

trendylfj wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:07 am
I had an hour to spare and so listened to the bbc podcast - great listening and points raised all round - recommended by me at least - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p080v9w5
Me too. Venter bullish as usual, McCall felt “sad”. Neither apologetic or ashamed. Typical. Monye confirmed that a club needs to comply with the cap for 2 years before promotion, to avoid front loading contracts. He should know, he took the drop with Quins. So, Sarries had better get themselves in order fast if they want to avoid 2 years in the wilderness. Given that they appear to be being penalised for not meeting the cap this year already, they might find that tricky!
I find your lack of faith......disturbing.

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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by strawclearer » Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:21 pm

loretta wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:05 pm
trendylfj wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:07 am
I had an hour to spare and so listened to the bbc podcast - great listening and points raised all round - recommended by me at least - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p080v9w5
Me too. Venter bullish as usual, McCall felt “sad”. Neither apologetic or ashamed. Typical. Monye confirmed that a club needs to comply with the cap for 2 years before promotion, to avoid front loading contracts. He should know, he took the drop with Quins. So, Sarries had better get themselves in order fast if they want to avoid 2 years in the wilderness. Given that they appear to be being penalised for not meeting the cap this year already, they might find that tricky!
McCall trying to distance himself from the 'bad stuff'.....

He tends to favour "they made mistakes" as opposed to "we need to get on with it".
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by jgriffin » Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:31 pm

What stuns me is that from the top to the bottom at Sarries (the fans) nobody seems to accept they were persistently breaking the rules. Indeed some fan comments border on the tinfoil hat brigade with conspiracy theories etc.
WE thought they were breaking the rules with signings like Smit (for very little evident £), some (non-Sarries) players by 2013/14 KNEW they were.
At least Rowe can die happy with the first leg of his crusade settled (do Sarries/win a title).
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BFG
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by BFG » Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:37 pm

jgriffin wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:31 pm
What stuns me is that from the top to the bottom at Sarries (the fans) nobody seems to accept they were persistently breaking the rules. Indeed some fan comments border on the tinfoil hat brigade with conspiracy theories etc.
WE thought they were breaking the rules with signings like Smit (for very little evident £), some (non-Sarries) players by 2013/14 KNEW they were.
At least Rowe can die happy with the first leg of his crusade settled (do Sarries/win a title).
In my opinion the lack of acceptance stems from the cap being breached by others in the past and it being overlooked.

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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by jgriffin » Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:43 pm

BFG wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:37 pm
jgriffin wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:31 pm
What stuns me is that from the top to the bottom at Sarries (the fans) nobody seems to accept they were persistently breaking the rules. Indeed some fan comments border on the tinfoil hat brigade with conspiracy theories etc.
WE thought they were breaking the rules with signings like Smit (for very little evident £), some (non-Sarries) players by 2013/14 KNEW they were.
At least Rowe can die happy with the first leg of his crusade settled (do Sarries/win a title).
In my opinion the lack of acceptance stems from the cap being breached by others in the past and it being overlooked.
One of my info sources - ex Bath - confirmed Bath had transgressed and said it was common. However he did view Sarries as on a different plane.
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CrumblingTerrace
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by CrumblingTerrace » Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:45 pm

Mark McCall seems to be conveniently distancing himself from this scandal, whilst neither confirming nor denying that he had knowledge of it happening.

Time to play your hand, Mr McCall. You were either in on it (in which case, get ready for the fall) or you weren't (in which case, you've been well and truly screwed by those above you).

Tiglon
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by Tiglon » Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:57 pm

CrumblingTerrace wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:45 pm
Mark McCall seems to be conveniently distancing himself from this scandal, whilst neither confirming nor denying that he had knowledge of it happening.

Time to play your hand, Mr McCall. You were either in on it (in which case, get ready for the fall) or you weren't (in which case, you've been well and truly screwed by those above you).
I think McCall is being a bit more pragmatic than that. Life isn't black and white and there are many options in between the two that you suggest.

"Clearly the club have made some mistakes, and big mistakes, and they have been rightly punished for those mistakes."

His job isn't to manage contracts or wages so why should he take responsibility for them? He's there to look after the rugby.

FredKite
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by FredKite » Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:59 pm

I have a lot of respect for McCall, he has done a stunningly good job to produce the quality teams at Saracens over the past 8 or 9 years and he is a pretty intelligent guy but no one will ever convince me that, as he looked around the training ground at his squad, he didn’t question how the management had managed to assemble that squad within the Premiership cap. Similarly he would have been closely involved in recruitment of players which would surely have made him question again how everyone would fit into their cap.

Tiglon
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by Tiglon » Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:03 pm

FredKite wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:59 pm
I have a lot of respect for McCall, he has done a stunningly good job to produce the quality teams at Saracens over the past 8 or 9 years and he is a pretty intelligent guy but no one will ever convince me that, as he looked around the training ground at his squad, he didn’t question how the management had managed to assemble that squad within the Premiership cap. Similarly he would have been closely involved in recruitment of players which would surely have made him question again how everyone would fit into their cap.
There is a huge difference between knowing/suspecting/questioning and being responsible.

Mark62
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by Mark62 » Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:07 pm

And if he did suspect/know anything, what’s he going to say to Nigel Wray, I really don’t want us sign this world class player

BFG
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by BFG » Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:10 pm

jgriffin wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:43 pm
BFG wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:37 pm
jgriffin wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:31 pm
What stuns me is that from the top to the bottom at Sarries (the fans) nobody seems to accept they were persistently breaking the rules. Indeed some fan comments border on the tinfoil hat brigade with conspiracy theories etc.
WE thought they were breaking the rules with signings like Smit (for very little evident £), some (non-Sarries) players by 2013/14 KNEW they were.
At least Rowe can die happy with the first leg of his crusade settled (do Sarries/win a title).
In my opinion the lack of acceptance stems from the cap being breached by others in the past and it being overlooked.
One of my info sources - ex Bath - confirmed Bath had transgressed and said it was common. However he did view Sarries as on a different plane.
Yes definitely on a different plane but then their team has grown to that level.
I'd bet on others doing it with those players.

I have also heard a rumour that the possibility of several star players going on loan abroad rather than signing abroad might be an option for England players, early days on that though.

FredKite
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by FredKite » Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:13 pm

I agree but I was careful not to claim he was responsible.

kend
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by kend » Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:20 pm

I wonder if the reason Saracens chose not open their books is to protect their key assets in McCall, coaches and senior players rather than there being further breaches they want to hide.

A full investigation is likely to reveal who knew what and when.

If there is no direct evidence of knowledge or involvement they can distance the coaches and players from the culpable decision makers. If direct evidence emerged that McCall knew, surely his position would be untenable and they would be in an even deeper crisis?

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