Saracens are relegated!

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BFG
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by BFG » Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:52 pm

jgriffin wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:12 pm
Chiefs are my family team, I'm the odd one out. There are qualifications on the part myth about the 3 forwards concerned, just make the point TTTE was initially not a fans favourite, indeed was close to ejection, until there was an assertion of coach power; he remained a bit of a curate's egg for many Chiefs fans as seen as a poacher rather than a grafter. Players have to buy into the 'no superstars', 'no egos' philosophy.
I find it difficult to see how anyone could want to play Saracens now.
I thought that TTTE was a poacher.
He divided opinion and his leaving for a better offer added support to the anti-Cockers brigade here.
Parling and Salvi were key players in my opinion.
Parling I thought was our get out tactic and took so much line out ball and losing Croft to injury earlier than should've been the case really exaggerated this, and especially at the time with a relatively inexperienced converted centre playing at hooker.
Exeter certainly benefitted at Leicester's cost.
Anyway on topic Sarries should've been slapped down harder before, I can't believe that it was allowed to go this far and for so long and am left wondering what else and who else!
I always assumed that everyone was thoroughly checked annually, that assumption was very wrong!

POSTIGER
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by POSTIGER » Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:50 pm

I've heard that this has hit the senior pros at Sarries really hard, all 74 of them.
I saw Marika Vunibaka play

WhitecapTiger
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by WhitecapTiger » Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:57 pm

Sweet Caroline played/sung again after today's game...Good times never seemed so fake.......Sung by a Fat Lady, so it must be over.


Tiki Tki Tonga,
Sarries splashed the Wonga
Now they're Premiership no Longa

(OK, I stole the last one - can't claim it)
Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens.

newport tiger
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by newport tiger » Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:16 am

Ian Cant wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:57 pm
I don’t condone what Sarries hierarchy has done but whatever is said the squad is superbly well coached. You look at our backs when fully fit and they too should, even with limited ball, score tries!
As for PLR saying they want a fair contest I find that totally ignores the fact that those clubs, often Tigers, Sarries, Bath, Quins and Saints are never going to be on the same, level playing field during The Autumn Internationals, Six Nations and World Cup! :smt017
Last season for us some forget that Tuilagi, Genge( Summer injury with England) and not quite so much, but May missed important parts of the season through England and injury as well as Ford, Youngs and Cole being in the England 23.

I wish the Sarries players well and will continue to admire their rugby skill set.
I totally agree with your comments, but be prepared to be slaughtered on here. Sarries have been the only English club to stand up and be counted in Europe over the last few seasons. I accept the fact that there is a club v country argument here but surely the salary cap only encourages clubs to sign overseas players as they won't go missing during 6N & AI, therefore young English talent misses out regardless. I have always said if players come through a clubs academy they should not be included in the salary cap unless they move on(regardless of age) so Dan Cole & Ben Youngs wouldn't count against us, otherwise you are just penalising clubs for producing talent.

mol2
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by mol2 » Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:14 am

There's no doubt the salary cap effectively stops England competing at the top level of Europe and it has become clear the reason Saracens were able to compete was that they ignored the salary cap.

The question for the league clubs is whether the salary cap is sustainable or if playing in Europe is sustainable.

Calling Sarries a great side is perhaps reasonable on a European level but not on a domestic level where their flouting of the salary cap was frankly cheating.

Those that adhere to the salary cap are unlikely to be able to compete with the big budget French teams or the Irish regions.
I wonder how much BT or Sky would pay to cover European rugby that doesn't include English sides?

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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by daktari » Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:36 am

Saracens prove why the cap is needed. In the real world, they are total unsustainable, their debt is massive and they only survive because Wray props them up. If the cap goes, with-out a sugar daddy, most clubs will collapse.

On a side note, was talking to a Notts Forest support....Wray has form for not giving a monkeys about the impact his behaviour has....
find a better way of life, http://www.marillion.com

marillion 19, coming ....er not sure..

BFG
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by BFG » Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:42 am

daktari wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:36 am
Saracens prove why the cap is needed. In the real world, they are total unsustainable, their debt is massive and they only survive because Wray props them up. If the cap goes, with-out a sugar daddy, most clubs will collapse.

On a side note, was talking to a Notts Forest support....Wray has form for not giving a monkeys about the impact his behaviour has....
If we go on being sustainable as a club then unfortunately there would not be a decent national competition, let alone being competitive in Europe.
Rugby is needing to take risk to move forward.
Yes it's risk but there is no other way of seeking growth, if people want growth that is, it doesn't necessarily have to be sought but expect to be beaten regularly and heavily in Europe!
I think Exeter were the only club to make a profit last year, they are fortunate to have entered the Premiership when it's doing well financially and also do not exist in an area where competition from other sports is fierce.
T.V exposure and resulting increase in sponsorship is key to any growth, and this will depend on being competitive and generally looking good.
It's a bit if a catch 22 situation.

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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by Tiglon » Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:56 am

BFG wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:28 pm
longlivethecrumbie wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:33 pm
BFG wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:20 pm


The Chiefs love in here is a joke.
I long suspected that one poster in particular was a Chiefs fan posing as a Leicester fan!
For all the complaints about cheating I haven't heard a peep from you lot about those around the league once banned for steroid use!
Possibly because the thread is about Saracens being relegated for financial mismanagement and cheating of the cap. I'm not entirely sure this is a love in - it's more a counter argument to your rhetoric that Exeter are at the source of Tigers decline for signing three players from us (which is, frankly, laughable)

If you want to discuss steroid abuse as a topic then start a thread about it. I'm sure there will be plenty who will be happy to pass comment.
Exeter taking three of Leicester's best forwards damaged Leicester, in my opinion.
You don't have to agree with it and I don't care!
You build a good team and give players a platform and then someone comes along who can offer a bit more and it's all undone.
It's dog eat dog and it was terrible timing for Leicester.
The cap is a national leveller but it's also an international hindrance, that Sarries have broken the cap and done very well in Europe is proof of this.
I don't dispute that Baxter has done well at Exeter but be in no doubt that they unsettled Leicester in the past and they have become the club that has replaced Leicester as a regular play off contender.
Sarries have rightly been called cheats on this topic and so anything cheating related is relevant to the discussion in my opinion.
I have no doubt that there are Chiefs fans present in this topic.
I think you're a bit paranoid BFG. It's not unreasonable to defend Chiefs when they're being criticised for doing exactly what Tigers and every other club do - sign players from other clubs.

I'm with you on the steroids thing - when Ackermann joined Glouc 2 years ago there was much anger on here that we had brought in MOC instead. When I pointed out that Ackermann is a proven drugs cheat and said I'd rather be in 8th than have a drug cheat as DoR/HC, the only response I got was "I wouldn't".

BFG
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by BFG » Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:06 am

Tiglon wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:56 am
BFG wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:28 pm
longlivethecrumbie wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:33 pm


Possibly because the thread is about Saracens being relegated for financial mismanagement and cheating of the cap. I'm not entirely sure this is a love in - it's more a counter argument to your rhetoric that Exeter are at the source of Tigers decline for signing three players from us (which is, frankly, laughable)

If you want to discuss steroid abuse as a topic then start a thread about it. I'm sure there will be plenty who will be happy to pass comment.
Exeter taking three of Leicester's best forwards damaged Leicester, in my opinion.
You don't have to agree with it and I don't care!
You build a good team and give players a platform and then someone comes along who can offer a bit more and it's all undone.
It's dog eat dog and it was terrible timing for Leicester.
The cap is a national leveller but it's also an international hindrance, that Sarries have broken the cap and done very well in Europe is proof of this.
I don't dispute that Baxter has done well at Exeter but be in no doubt that they unsettled Leicester in the past and they have become the club that has replaced Leicester as a regular play off contender.
Sarries have rightly been called cheats on this topic and so anything cheating related is relevant to the discussion in my opinion.
I have no doubt that there are Chiefs fans present in this topic.
I think you're a bit paranoid BFG. It's not unreasonable to defend Chiefs when they're being criticised for doing exactly what Tigers and every other club do - sign players from other clubs.

I'm with you on the steroids thing - when Ackermann joined Glouc 2 years ago there was much anger on here that we had brought in MOC instead. When I pointed out that Ackermann is a proven drugs cheat and said I'd rather be in 8th than have a drug cheat as DoR/HC, the only response I got was "I wouldn't".
I don't think I'm being unreasonable towards Exeter and for one reason alone, and that is that Exeter are playing the victims.
They are not victims, they are the beneficiaries of a Premiership competition that was here long before they arrived.
It's a competition that Saracens have contributed to building and promoted on the bigger stage probably more than anyone recently that has brought bigger money, money that everyone wants and needs.
I don't like that Saracens have broken the cap but I can understand why they have broken the cap, I also don't like steroid use but I also undertand why that is done, it's a quicker route to a target, the two are not too dissimilar in this regard.

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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by Tiglon » Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:09 am

BFG wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:06 am

I don't think I'm being unreasonable towards Exeter and for one reason alone, and that is that Exeter are playing the victims.
They are not victims, they are the beneficiaries of a Premiership competition that was here long before they arrived.
It's a competition that Saracens have contributed to building and promoted on the bigger stage probably more than anyone recently that has brought bigger money, money that everyone wants.
I don't like that Saracens have broken the cap but I can understand why they have broken the cap, I also don't like steroid use but I also undertand why that is done, it's a quicker route to a target, the two are not as dissimilar in this regard.
I'm confused, I thought you were angry because Chiefs signed some Tigers players a few years ago?

It's great that you can empathise with people who cheat in professional sport (they are people too, and people make mistakes), but surely you can also empathise with those who criticise cheating in professional sport?

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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by Coops » Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:27 am

mol2 wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:14 am
Calling Sarries a great side is perhaps reasonable on a European level but not on a domestic level where their flouting of the salary cap was frankly cheating.
But under the rules and regulations you have to qualify from the English league to be eligible for competing in the European Cup, therefore they aren't actually a great side in Europe either.

But I do see the argument that there isn't a salary cap in Europe thus they may be able to compete.

BFG
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by BFG » Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:30 am

Tiglon wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:09 am
BFG wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:06 am

I don't think I'm being unreasonable towards Exeter and for one reason alone, and that is that Exeter are playing the victims.
They are not victims, they are the beneficiaries of a Premiership competition that was here long before they arrived.
It's a competition that Saracens have contributed to building and promoted on the bigger stage probably more than anyone recently that has brought bigger money, money that everyone wants.
I don't like that Saracens have broken the cap but I can understand why they have broken the cap, I also don't like steroid use but I also undertand why that is done, it's a quicker route to a target, the two are not as dissimilar in this regard.
I'm confused, I thought you were angry because Chiefs signed some Tigers players a few years ago?

It's great that you can empathise with people who cheat in professional sport (they are people too, and people make mistakes), but surely you can also empathise with those who criticise cheating in professional sport?

You're mistaken, there are more important things in life to be angry about.
People can be critical however they wish, that's their choice.
Overplaying the woe me card though is quite pathetic, in my opinion!
You don't have to agree and that's fine.

FredKite
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by FredKite » Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:50 am

Is it correct that there is a ‘parachute’ payment for the relegated team? In the circumstances that would be rather ironic wouldn’t it?

Mark62
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by Mark62 » Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:05 am

Coops wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:27 am
mol2 wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:14 am
Calling Sarries a great side is perhaps reasonable on a European level but not on a domestic level where their flouting of the salary cap was frankly cheating.
But under the rules and regulations you have to qualify from the English league to be eligible for competing in the European Cup, therefore they aren't actually a great side in Europe either.

But I do see the argument that there isn't a salary cap in Europe thus they may be able to compete.
This was always my argument that one leads to the other. Had they not broken the salary cap in the domestic league wouldn’t this have affected how they qualified into Europe, the group they were in their seeding etc

trendylfj
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Re: Saracens are relegated!

Post by trendylfj » Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:07 am

I had an hour to spare and so listened to the bbc podcast - great listening and points raised all round - recommended by me at least - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p080v9w5
Hehehehehehehehe

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