Saracens are relegated!

[Scuttle]

Does anybody know what is being said on the Saracens fans forum. I assume they have on but I cannot find it.

[TomWeston]

Does anybody know what is being said on the Saracens fans forum. I assume they have on but I cannot find it.

I can only find this one.

https://www.rugbynetwork.net/boards/rea ... 082,page=6

Still in denial with some of their supporters pushing Saffas as the alternative England, it seems.

[trendylfj]

https://www.rugbynetwork.net/boards/list/s104.htm

[trendylfj]

https://www.rugbynetwork.net/boards/rea ... 7,16678082

[Traveller]

I started this post in June with the opening gambit:

‘The investigation was first announced in early March.
Saracens is hardly Glaxo or Apple. It's a medium sized company with simple accounts for forensic accountants. The FRC investigation into Carillion only took three months. We are now deep into June.’

The fact that it’s the ‘new broom’ team that has chosen to take a ‘Financial Miranda’ and accept relegation demonstrates the continued influence of the Wray family. After all he who pays the piper calls the tune, and since the club is even more reliant on Wray largesse, the family is bound to exert a strong influence on the mood music of the club.

Nonetheless I for one will welcome their return to the premiership, and trust that Neil Golding is as good as his word, and that the family members select the right mood music. A good start might be to paint over the words: humility, honesty and integrity.

The fact is that Saracens were a great club, long before Nigel Wray swaggered into the clubhouse with his ‘loadsamoney’ wallet and warped value system. The irony is, it is Nigel Wray who didn’t believe Saracens were a Great Club. They had to win trophies, in order to be so, ends justifying means.

Whilst in the short-term things are a mess, in the medium term it must be good for the integrity of the overall competition. Europe is not everything. Over the last century few English teams have won European Football competitions but the Premier League thrives.

I am a lifelong supporter of Tigers, and it has never been the trophies that made me so. It was the values of the club and the people. I can’t help thinking there is some learning for us in all of this. About how easy it is to move lose the values that made you special. I include myself in that.

Apologies to other forum contributors if things have got a bit heated at times.

[BFG]

I started this post in June with the opening gambit:

‘The investigation was first announced in early March.
Saracens is hardly Glaxo or Apple. It's a medium sized company with simple accounts for forensic accountants. The FRC investigation into Carillion only took three months. We are now deep into June.’

The fact that it’s the ‘new broom’ team that has chosen to take a ‘Financial Miranda’ and accept relegation demonstrates the continued influence of the Wray family. After all he who pays the piper calls the tune, and since the club is even more reliant on Wray largesse, the family is bound to exert a strong influence on the mood music of the club.

Nonetheless I for one will welcome their return to the premiership, and trust that Neil Golding is as good as his word, and that the family members select the right mood music. A good start might be to paint over the words: humility, honesty and integrity.

The fact is that Saracens were a great club, long before Nigel Wray swaggered into the clubhouse with his ‘loadsamoney’ wallet and warped value system. The irony is, it is Nigel Wray who didn’t believe Saracens were a Great Club. They had to win trophies, in order to be so, ends justifying means.

Whilst in the short-term things are a mess, in the medium term it must be good for the integrity of the overall competition. Europe is not everything. Over the last century few English teams have won European Football competitions but the Premier League thrives.

I am a lifelong supporter of Tigers, and it has never been the trophies that made me so. It was the values of the club and the people. I can’t help thinking there is some learning for us in all of this. About how easy it is to move lose the values that made you special. I include myself in that.

Apologies to other forum contributors if things have got a bit heated at times.

All being and knowing, how would you suggest that the English clubs pay the debt that they have accumulated to invest, given that now there will be likely be no growth and potentially a reduction in revenues due to this entire blown up mess?

[Traveller]

Will they still be described as one of the most successful rugby union clubs in the world, after this?

They still are, according to one Stephen Jones, Tigers Fan Extraordinaire, in the Sunday Times.

“ None can touch Saracens. In this era, they have been the greatest club team I have seen.”

“ On a final note, I will go to my grave believing that no payment to a single Saracens player made a blind bit of difference to any match at any time. And that frankly, Saracens have just been too good.”

No reference to the fact that the team wouldn’t/couldn’t have been that good without throwing money at players from academy level upwards.

Stephen Jones has lost all credibility as a rugby journalist imo

The 'Barnes But No Nobility' Fraternity of Grand Rugby Correspondents (motto - audite nihil mali, nullum malum, de mortuis nil nisi bonum) left it to a journalist who five years ago was a trainee, to lift up the drain and see if things smelt. Because they didn't want their free tickets, and glad handing gravy train to come to an abrupt end.

All these so called correspondents with their inside tracks, their morning lattes with agents, players, coaches, owners and directors, their rugby networks, knew nothing and suspected even less. Yet a trainee journalist in 2015 did a bit of digging at companies house and.......

On the day the relegation story broke Kitson in the Guardian was salivating over 'Saracens indomitable spirit in keeping their show on the road' (literally a couple of hours before the story broke).

Saracens are babes in the woods, compared to our grand bevy of rugby correspondents, who really have shown an indomitable determination to turn a blind eye, put thumbs in ears, tape over their mouths, and sing 'la, la, la' for fear of rocking their communal boat.

Speak no Slott. Hear no Rees. See no Cleary. "Stuart what's your tipple", "a large and rudely expensive Rioja for me, Nigel".

But way, way out ahead is the self-parody that is Stephen "don't worry I'll clear up after you Mr Wray. Did I tell you I'm friends with James Haskell & 'Cips” (that's what Danny's friends like me call him)" Jones.

Interesting to see Jamie Roberts go to SA midseason. I wonder what his salary was at Bath.

[Traveller]

I started this post in June with the opening gambit:

‘The investigation was first announced in early March.
Saracens is hardly Glaxo or Apple. It's a medium sized company with simple accounts for forensic accountants. The FRC investigation into Carillion only took three months. We are now deep into June.’

The fact that it’s the ‘new broom’ team that has chosen to take a ‘Financial Miranda’ and accept relegation demonstrates the continued influence of the Wray family. After all he who pays the piper calls the tune, and since the club is even more reliant on Wray largesse, the family is bound to exert a strong influence on the mood music of the club.

Nonetheless I for one will welcome their return to the premiership, and trust that Neil Golding is as good as his word, and that the family members select the right mood music. A good start might be to paint over the words: humility, honesty and integrity.

The fact is that Saracens were a great club, long before Nigel Wray swaggered into the clubhouse with his ‘loadsamoney’ wallet and warped value system. The irony is, it is Nigel Wray who didn’t believe Saracens were a Great Club. They had to win trophies, in order to be so, ends justifying means.

Whilst in the short-term things are a mess, in the medium term it must be good for the integrity of the overall competition. Europe is not everything. Over the last century few English teams have won European Football competitions but the Premier League thrives.

I am a lifelong supporter of Tigers, and it has never been the trophies that made me so. It was the values of the club and the people. I can’t help thinking there is some learning for us in all of this. About how easy it is to move lose the values that made you special. I include myself in that.

Apologies to other forum contributors if things have got a bit heated at times.

All being and knowing, how would you suggest that the English clubs pay the debt that they have accumulated to invest, given that now there will be likely be no growth and potentially a reduction in revenues due to this entire blown up mess?

"where there is hatred, let me sow love; where there is injury, pardon; where there is discord, union; where there is doubt, faith; where there is despair, hope; where there is darkness, light; and where there is sadness, joy."

PS. Enlighten me on the clumsy phrase - 'entire blown up mess'.

[Scuttle]

Does anybody know what is being said on the Saracens fans forum. I assume they have on but I cannot find it.

I can only find this one.

https://www.rugbynetwork.net/boards/rea ... 082,page=6

Still in denial with some of their supporters pushing Saffas as the alternative England, it seems.

Thanks Tom. A bit of a mixed bag. Some know where the blame lies, other still with the Fez toggle obscuring their view of the facts.

[TomWeston]

Some of us appreciate your erudite contributions here, me for one as another accountant (I think you wrote previously that you were) but one disinclined to look into Saracen’s accounts personally.

And when you posted ‘Miranda’ I took a deep breath but quickly realised you weren’t referring to one Anthony Charles Lynton Blair.

Keep it up, no apologies needed if you think you have raised the temperature here.

[Tiglon]

There's no reason to believe this scandal will damage rugby in the long term. Does anyone remember the match fixing scandal in Italian football a few years back? That, for most, was a much higher level of cheating (after all, with the Saracens scam it was still 15 men against 15 men and an unbiased referee) and yet Italian football does just fine and Juventus, the main culprits, are dominating again.

If more clubs are found to have been naughty, it will be worse, but it will still in my opinion make a mockery of the salary cap and not the sport itself.

As for Sarries not opening their books and accepting relegation instead - the only reason to do that is if there was a possibility that something worse would be discovered. A friend of mine works for PwC, the accountancy firm. Apparently, they had to advise Sarries last year that the amount they paid to players (or to offshore companies set up for the players) as "image rights" instead of salary to avoid tax could be seen as unreasonably excessive and consequently breaking tax laws. A hypothetical example is that you pay Jackson Wray £50k salary per year, and then you pay him £300k for image rights. Jackson Wray is a fine player, but there's no way that his image rights are worth that much to the club, he simply isn't that well known - therefore HMRC would argue that this is in fact salary disguised as image rights and should be taxed as such. The player would then be liable for a larger tax and NI bill, and the club would be liable for extra NI and probably a big fat fine.

I'm not saying that's the "something worse" or that they have definitely been breaking/bending tax laws, but it's one possibility.

[Wayne Richardson Fan Club]

See Tony Rowe says there is more dirt.....

The BBC might run with this now from a journalistic point of view, I hope they do, they don't particularly have "skin in the game" the whole lot needs to come out.

I hope at all matches for the rest of this season Sarries get the reception they deserve....

Will Eddie Jones stick with Farrell as skipper?

[TomWeston]

“ Will Eddie Jones stick with Farrell as skipper?”

Farrell is a pretty tough cookie. I’m sure Slow Eddie would only replace him as captain if he thought the Saracens cheating would impact his England performance.

[BFG]

I'm absolutely amazed at the lack of recognition that the salary cap helped enable the Chiefs to take our players and destroy what was a successful Leicester team.
It terms of levelling up the league it did that and then some.
Clubs are not rewarded for their good work, others just take and profit from it, Chiefs turn will come!

[Tiglon]

I'm absolutely amazed at the lack of recognition that the salary cap helped enable the Chiefs to take our players and destroy what was a successful Leicester team.
It terms of levelling up the league it did that and then some.
Clubs are not rewarded for their good work, others just take and profit from it, Chiefs turn will come!

I would suggest it was Tigers' failure to replace them that destroyed what was a successful team. Parling, Salvi and Waldrom all no longer play for Chiefs, yet Chiefs are still successful because they replaced them well.