Saracens are relegated!

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Wayne Richardson Fan Club
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Wayne Richardson Fan Club » Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:06 pm

westwinds31 wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:44 pm
Wayne Richardson Fan Club wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:27 pm
Saracens the Justin Gatlin of Rugby
...and he came back and won a medal...
& hated.
To win is not as important as playing with style!

WhitecapTiger
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by WhitecapTiger » Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:24 pm

Wayne Richardson Fan Club wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:06 pm
westwinds31 wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:44 pm
Wayne Richardson Fan Club wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:27 pm
Saracens the Justin Gatlin of Rugby
...and he came back and won a medal...
& hated.
They're already that - even if some tell you it's simply jealousy and the green eyed monster
Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens.

baz1664
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by baz1664 » Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:43 pm

The correct decision, they should be stripped of all domestic titles, Saracens have clearly been breaching the cap for years, Surely there will be a flurry of internationals moving on after this season, an embarrassing episode all round and one that removes Sarries piece of history in domestic and European rugby!!

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by BFG » Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:44 pm

Traveller wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:10 pm
Scott1 wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:06 pm
Got to put up with Chiefs running the show now, I'd rather Sarries stay up if I'm honest, detest Exeter 🤣
Not being argumentative - what is it you detest about them. Is it the supporters?
The players? The style of play? Genuinely interested. They seem a decent bunch to me and Rob Baxter seems to be a class act. Repeat - genuine question.
I'm in agreement with Scott.
For me it's their style of play, in particular forming a ruck.
They have also done more harm to Leicester than Sarries have done.
They took Parling, Salvi and Waldrom.
Baxter gets the plaudits but it was built on taking nearly half of a successful Leicester pack.

TigerS2
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by TigerS2 » Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:53 pm

BFG wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:44 pm
Traveller wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:10 pm
Scott1 wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:06 pm
Got to put up with Chiefs running the show now, I'd rather Sarries stay up if I'm honest, detest Exeter 🤣
Not being argumentative - what is it you detest about them. Is it the supporters?
The players? The style of play? Genuinely interested. They seem a decent bunch to me and Rob Baxter seems to be a class act. Repeat - genuine question.
I'm in agreement with Scott.
For me it's their style of play, in particular forming a ruck.
They have also done more harm to Leicester than Sarries have done.
They took Parling, Salvi and Waldrom.
Baxter gets the plaudits but it was built on taking nearly half of a successful Leicester pack.

I hate their fans chants, and drums, but that is all really. Loads of players leave clubs for money, a better lifestyle, or a new challenge.. Exeter is a beautiful area of the country, so I can’t blame them for leaving.

daktari
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by daktari » Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:13 pm

Scott1 wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:42 pm
So if I'm right Sarries will be spending two years in the Championship if they can't comply with this seasons cap?
As it stands at the moment, yes, they have to be compliant with the cap for the 2 years directly before promoted
find a better way of life, http://www.marillion.com

marillion 19, coming ....er not sure..

CitizenSmiff
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by CitizenSmiff » Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:25 pm

What I can't understand is why they were asked to give up their titles and were able to refuse. Just take them, change the names in whatever filing system the official record is kept and boom, done. What are they going to do, storm Twickers to change them back?

daktari
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by daktari » Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:38 pm

CitizenSmiff wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:25 pm
What I can't understand is why they were asked to give up their titles and were able to refuse. Just take them, change the names in whatever filing system the official record is kept and boom, done. What are they going to do, storm Twickers to change them back?
I don’t get why they opted for relegation instead of opening their books....it’s like they’re got something else to hide :smt017
find a better way of life, http://www.marillion.com

marillion 19, coming ....er not sure..

Offside
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Offside » Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:03 am

It does make you wonder. What is posted at companies house is the official declared top level version. A forensic accountant would crawl over the books at individual payment and receipt level and may need to so that with player and owner /connected person accounts too, as they are part of the salary cap. The accountant may be professionally bound to report any legal transgressions they detected. I know that would apply to other professions.

BFG
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by BFG » Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:38 am

TigerS2 wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:53 pm
BFG wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:44 pm
Traveller wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:10 pm


Not being argumentative - what is it you detest about them. Is it the supporters?
The players? The style of play? Genuinely interested. They seem a decent bunch to me and Rob Baxter seems to be a class act. Repeat - genuine question.
I'm in agreement with Scott.
For me it's their style of play, in particular forming a ruck.
They have also done more harm to Leicester than Sarries have done.
They took Parling, Salvi and Waldrom.
Baxter gets the plaudits but it was built on taking nearly half of a successful Leicester pack.

I hate their fans chants, and drums, but that is all really. Loads of players leave clubs for money, a better lifestyle, or a new challenge.. Exeter is a beautiful area of the country, so I can’t blame them for leaving.
It's all very damaging to the sport.
Exeter arrived at the perfect time to cash in on the success of the Premiership, a success I might add that has been promoted recently by Sarries success in Europe.
Other clubs have accumulated debt based on the potential for future growth.
I've no idea how they will achieve that growth now with our clubs being well beaten in international competition and the sport possibly being tainted by this.
Look at Wasps yesterday, nilled at home by a French club.
They should've come down on the cap breaches when it was breached a few years ago but the message was weak.
Now they may have just thrown the future up in the air.
It could affect anything from T.V revenues to sponsorship.
It doesn't look great all round does it!

speedski
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by speedski » Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:36 am

daktari wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:38 pm
CitizenSmiff wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:25 pm
What I can't understand is why they were asked to give up their titles and were able to refuse. Just take them, change the names in whatever filing system the official record is kept and boom, done. What are they going to do, storm Twickers to change them back?
I don’t get why they opted for relegation instead of opening their books....it’s like they’re got something else to hide :smt017
This is the most important piece of the whole scenario

It’s not what Wray has done for the sport
It’s not what sarries has won
It’s not what sarries did when caught the first time

It’s the fact that they still won’t let the books be checked. They would rather take complete relegation and clear re-factoring of the squad over anything else.

If I was a sarries fan I would be most concerned and focussed on why. You can defend cheats if you feel you’ve been hard done by as a fan but you can’t defend what you’ve done if you’re not willing to show how. I also don’t buy that the coaches and players aren’t involved. They did the deals, they signed the contracts - sarries has a policy of cutting out agents so all this was done directly with the players!

I don’t hate sarries - the academy etc is spectacular - the coaching team impressive and capable. I do detest cheats, liars and most of all how the referees would let them ‘all blacks’ any offenses - avoiding cards by getting penalties in the red zone all the time.

But anyway - if any of us ran a business which refused to show the tax man or indeed source of funds it gets removed/seized/fined.

And that’s what sarries got. All because it was less-bad than showing the books.

simoscribbler
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by simoscribbler » Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:08 am

My guess is that things will get worse for Sarries until the judgement is made public. The reason that many of us like sport is that it seems fair, and one aspect of our lives that isn't controlled by very rich men....

The financial implications are especially interesting. Will Allianz renew their sponsorship? If not, who will take it on?

Will the Wray family continue to bankroll the business, even as losses increase over the next year or two and their dad continues to be regarded as the main villain of the piece?

Their PR approach seems to me to have been ill judged to say the least, even very recently. It has hardened attitudes massively. If they weren't going to appeal they should have offered a mea culpa and published the findings themselves. That might just have drawn a line under it.

The hardcore fans (the clue is in the name) will continue to buy the line and their season tickets, but the rest of us still see the actions of what is now a business (like Tigers) through a Corinthian lens - hence much of the anger. It won't just go away.

Every indication that this one will run and run. 'Rugby values 'are being undermined at every turn - for example some of the dreadful interactions between pro players and officials - so maybe this will mark some kind of low water mark and things will improve from here. Rugby really was different, and maybe it can be again. Here's hoping...

Ps forgot to say: what if they go and win the European cup this year? Has to be a very decent chance. Wonder how the sponsors etc would feel about that.

westwinds31
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by westwinds31 » Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:31 am

simoscribbler wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:08 am
My guess is that things will get worse for Sarries until the judgement is made public.

The financial implications are especially interesting. Will Allianz renew their sponsorship? If not, who will take it on?

Will the Wray family continue to bank roll the business, even as losses increase over the next year or two and their dad continues to be regarded as the main villain of the piece?

Their PR approach seems to me to have been I'll judged to say the least, even very recently. It has hardened attitudes massively.

The hardcore fans (the clue is in the name) will continue to buy the line and their season tickets, but the rest of us still see the actions of what is now a business (like Tigers) through a Corinthian lens - hence much of the anger. It won't just go away.

Every indication that this one will run and run. Rugby values are being undermined at every turn - for example some of the dreadful interactions between pro players and officials - so maybe this will mark some kind of low water mark and things will improve from here because these are dark days for our game. Here's hoping...
Brilliant post. The days of rugby fans lauding it over our round ball colleagues are over. Values, respect, fair play.....pah !

loretta
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by loretta » Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:32 am

daktari wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:13 pm
Scott1 wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:42 pm
So if I'm right Sarries will be spending two years in the Championship if they can't comply with this seasons cap?
As it stands at the moment, yes, they have to be compliant with the cap for the 2 years directly before promoted
As far as I can see, this is really important. If correct, many players will have little incentive to stick around in the championship and for twice as long as most of us were expecting. Also the team/club is more likely to be transformed on its return. Is there a link where I can see this in black and white?
I find your lack of faith......disturbing.

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Cagey Tiger » Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:45 am

I will be interested to see what cuts, if any, are made to the non-playing staff - the ticket office staff, the admin people, physios etc. - between now and when they return to the Premiership (assuming that they do). If there hadn't been any cheating, these people would have carried on in their employment "as usual". Now, will some of them be threatened with redundancy (which unfortunately happens when a club is relegated in the normal way)? Nigel Wray is the root cause of the relegation, so will he or the Wray family foot the wage bill for these, almost certainly, innocent people rather than make them redundant?

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