Saracens are relegated!

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strawclearer
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by strawclearer » Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:10 pm

DeadlyDunc wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:21 pm
teds wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:02 pm
Interesting interview with Kruis. Apologies if it’s been linked before, I only just saw it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=you ... 4_p5bZ4DM8

Apparently it is what it is. That’s all right then.
Best questioning on the subject I’ve seen, definately the bravest!

I do wonder if there is a level of apathy running through the club and lack of recognition with the players that it is cheating and all their success will be tainted by the fact they were playing with a huge advantage for 3+ years
The BBC once spent a lot of money on consultants trying to work out what to say on the News when they'd got it wrong and reported 'fake news'.

In the end, one of their news presenters got it right on his own:

"We made a mistake and we're sorry."

Over to you, George Kruis...
Happy days clearing straw from the pitch before the Baa-Baas games! KBO
Help save the Oceans - #RefuseTheStraw!

kk20gb30
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by kk20gb30 » Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:00 am

Actually find it surprising that this has taken so long to (re) emerge again....
with the best will in the world despite all the talk, contrition and humble pie that appears to be doing the rounds at Allianze Park ,very little has actually changed since the start of the season.Seemingly unforgivable apathy.

speedski
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by speedski » Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:28 am

This from the bbc article...

“Furthermore, any money paid as compensation to players for cutting short contracts would also be included in the wage bill.“

Basically they are dammed if they do and dammed if they don’t. If compensation counts that’s going to blow the £7m they are trying to get under.

That club could become a shell of its former self really quite quickly...

Leicestertinytiger
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Leicestertinytiger » Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:10 am

“According to other media reports, there are indications that Saracens are in a difficult position to provide the necessary assurances demanded of them about compliance with the cap this season.

With the salary-cap limit of £7m apparently, whilst previous reporting said that in two of the last three seasons, the club exceeded the cap by 650k, thus earning a 35 point deduction for each offence, the actual amount of excess was not stated,. It's now reported that they exceeded in three seasons, and two of those were by £1.2 million and £1.3 million most recently”.

drc_007
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by drc_007 » Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:17 am

Daily Mail is usually pretty accurate on rugby reporting.


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... rship.html

Looks like they are between a rock and a hard place. Probably going to accept a year in the Championship (where there is no salary cap) to get their house in order.

chewbacca
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by chewbacca » Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:07 am

drc_007 wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:17 am
Daily Mail is usually pretty accurate on rugby reporting.


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... rship.html

Looks like they are between a rock and a hard place. Probably going to accept a year in the Championship (where there is no salary cap) to get their house in order.
A year in the championship with no cap and the year after with effectively no cap as they are given that grace to comply seems hardly sufficient punishment as conceivably they could retain all their star players for 2 years.
I'm not cynical just experienced

voice of the crumbie
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by voice of the crumbie » Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:10 am

What galls me is the fact that the media continues to refer to them as Champions. They are no more champions than Lance Armstrong was Tour de France winner in the seasons he chose to cheat by using drugs. :smt013
Tigers for the premiership and European Cup. Get behind the team and make some noise!!

Bunchy
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Bunchy » Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:30 am

chewbacca wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:07 am
drc_007 wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:17 am
Daily Mail is usually pretty accurate on rugby reporting.


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... rship.html

Looks like they are between a rock and a hard place. Probably going to accept a year in the Championship (where there is no salary cap) to get their house in order.
A year in the championship with no cap and the year after with effectively no cap as they are given that grace to comply seems hardly sufficient punishment as conceivably they could retain all their star players for 2 years.
I accept that Chewie - however I expect the rules to change quite severely with the review now going on - so when they get back up it will, most probably be to a new set of rules - what they are remains to be seen but I expect them to be very different to current
Less is more....

trendylfj
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by trendylfj » Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:46 am

What gauls me is the inadequate way the authorities have policed the cap - for the last few years, we have all suspected and in some cases known, that they were over the cap and they did nothing and so to some extent, I feel sorry for Sarries but only because the rugby authorities allowed them to get away with it. In any walk of life, if you are told what you are doing is ok, then you carry on doing it. What is totally wrong is the non disclosure of everything they were doing so that they could get away with it so that we can all make an informed decision about the matter.

As for this season, as far as I can see, the only way they can get under the cap and avoid relegation is either by the players themselves taking control of the situation and either leaving without compensation or taking a pay cut in order to ensure the club is under the cap, neither of which I can see happening. As for relegation, if it is in the regulations as they stand at the moment, I have no issue with it happening. If it is not an available sanction, and I don't know if it is or not, then any sanction should be applied to this season and not applied to the start of next season - if that means that they are relegated by a further points deduction. But above all, PUBLISH ALL OF THE FINDINGS.
Hehehehehehehehe

JP14
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by JP14 » Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:47 am

Well this really shows how far they were over the cap, the cynic in me would feel a little sympathy as they are trying to make an effort to come under the cap but thanks to Wray it was almost impossible.
"Our Greatest Glory Is Not In Never Failing, But In Rising Every Time We Fall" Confucius

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Traveller » Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:47 am

I can't really see what the problem is for Saracens in getting under the cap and not even having to offload players.

There is talk of them being 25% over this playing year. So lets assume that is correct.

Now my understanding is that what makes Saracens special is that players don't go there for the money, they go there because they are a band of brothers, in the main recruited from their academy. They play for Saracens, not for money, but because of the way in which the club treats them as people, compared to other clubs. The club provides them with educational courses, and thinks about their wider families. They even got Mahatma Venter in the world-famous man of peace and harmony to develop this unique culture (honesty, integrity, work rate) and apartheid era entrepreneurJohann Rupert to finance it.

Then there is the community involvement, and the The Saracens Academy. There are those special bonding away days. There is the visionary stuff, to take the game to places no man has ventured to before, and the USA.

They've even made up a catchy marketing phrase for players from other clubs to use whenever they sign with Saracens, yes the Ogilvie & M inspired "something special is happening at Saracens."

So all the players take a 25% pay cut for this season (without reimbursement) the club will be alright. Then they've got time in the summer to really plan for a new future in the premiership.

A player on £250,000, after deductions would only be losing £35000+/-, and still be taking home £120000+/- For something so special, so close to the essence of who you are, surely you'd take that one off hit.

Just don't tell me it was a charade, that the only thing special happening at Saracens, is that the club cheats and cheats and cheats and cheats.

Oh and by the way, isn't it interesting to read that Jamie Roberts has left Bath with immediate effect. I wonder by how much that will reduce the Bath outgoings.

fleabane
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by fleabane » Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:47 am

Today’s Telegraph:

Saracens players have been called to a crisis meeting on Friday morning amid reports that the club are on the verge of automatic relegation from the Gallagher Premiership at the end of the season.

Executives from the Premiership clubs met on Tuesday, when the reigning domestic champions are understood to have been issued with an ultimatum to prove their compliance with the salary cap for the current season this week or drop to the second tier of English rugby.

Back in November, Saracens were found guilty of breaching the £7m salary cap in three consecutive seasons between 2016-17 and 2018-19, during which the club won two Premiership titles and also two Champions Cups.

They were fined £5.36m and docked 35 league points, the harshest sanctions available to Premiership Rugby under the competition’s regulations.

The 103-page report covering the investigation has not been released and is available only to club executives at Premiership Rugby’s offices, leading to calls from bosses at other Premiership clubs, including Exeter Chiefs chairman Tony Rowe, for the report to be made public. Saracens’ fine has since been split between the other 12 Premiership shareholders - the 11 top-flight clubs plus Newcastle Falcons.

Interim chief executive Ed Griffiths, who took over after long-time chairman Nigel Wray stepped down amid the salary cap scandal, admitted to The Times that “mistakes had been made” and that a process of “restructuring and recalculation would be required"We have to have talks, we have to do the numbers and then we have to make decisions," Griffiths said. "Our first consideration is to our players. That duty of care is paramount.

“We are in the scoping process at the moment so as to make sure that everyone is aware of our determination to be transparent. It is important to show that we are acting in good faith as regards the salary cap. That perception is a vital consideration.”

Mark McCall, the club’s director of rugby, recently stated that Saracens players who were coming to the end of their contracts of their respective careers would be at risk. The possibility of Liam Williams leaving the club early, having re-signed with Welsh region Scarlets for next season, was used as an example.

Other players coming to the end of their contracts at the club, including England back Alex Lozowski and back-rower Michael Rhodes, could also depart. England lock George Kruis, who is contracted beyond this season, has also been linked with a move to Japan.

However, no players have been officially released as yet. Veteran scrum-half Richard Wigglesworth admitted last weekend he may be one of the players whose fate is hanging in the balance. “They said it will be sooner rather than later,” he said.

Saracens insist they will continue to be bankrolled by the Wray family after it was revealed on Thursday that Wray has cut all ties with the club.

Having resigned as chairman, Wray has now also resigned as director of Saracens and its parent company, Premier Team Holdings, according to Companies House records. It means that after nearly 25 years as Saracens owner and benefactor, Wray has no direct links to the club.

For all their success on the field, Saracens would struggle to survive without the Wray family largesse. Last year, Wray wrote off £45 million of debt accrued by the club. The consequences of the Wray ­family completely cutting the cord would be catastrophic.

However, Griffiths last night ­insisted that was not the case. “The Wray family are committed in their support of Saracens and they ­remain so,” Griffiths said. In 2018, Wray bought out South African company Remgro’s 50 per cent stake in the club, but now it is understood Saracens are seeking fresh investment.
Valhalla I am coming!

CitizenSmiff
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by CitizenSmiff » Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:06 am

Relegation is a fitting punishment for what they did, IMO for as many seasons as they cheated through they should spend in the championship. Its just a massive shame the league couldn't predict what the rest of us already knew; that Sarries would play over the cap this season too and cost us all more points. Good riddance I say, they sold their souls a long time ago.

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Traveller » Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:28 am

CitizenSmiff wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:06 am
Relegation is a fitting punishment for what they did, IMO for as many seasons as they cheated through they should spend in the championship. Its just a massive shame the league couldn't predict what the rest of us already knew; that Sarries would play over the cap this season too and cost us all more points. Good riddance I say, they sold their souls a long time ago.
I'm with you all the way. It is a club with a warped value system from top to bottom. Too many people with too much skin in the games (players) looking away, unwilling to ask the "do you love me" questions for fear of not liking the answer they receive. In the video above Kruis equivocating, even at this late stage. Farrell the uber competitive, call a spade a spade, England Captain, the man with a degree in Leadership studies - silent.

It goes deep, and at the epicentre the Wray family. In a nutshell "we are ethically superior to you, so therefore whatever we do must be ethical, no matter what we do, because we are more ethical."

loretta
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by loretta » Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:30 am

I’m not a fan, but would next year be a good time for ring-fencing?

On a more serious note, Sarries could well retain their best players in the championship by huge salaries, but how many of the England contingent/hopefuls want to be seen in the Premiership for their international careers? With the 4 year rebuild presumably getter underway, it might just tip Eddie’s decision to look elsewhere
Last edited by loretta on Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
All I said was ........

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