Saracens are relegated!

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BFG
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by BFG » Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:22 am

Tiglon wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:09 am
If they're within the cap for the season as a whole, then I dont see a problem.

Lots of desperate clutching at straws here to find a way to punish Sarries further. If, at the end of this year, it is accepted that their total wage bill is within the cap, then they're ok.

So their declaration was probably false? To be honest, I think that's covered by the current sanctions, for me it's all part of the same offence. The idea that other clubs could sue Sarries to avoid relegation is a bit far fetched, as long as they manage to get themselves within the cap this year.

Letting players go does not confirm that they know they are in contravention, it confirms that they know they will be in contravention if they do not reduce their wages by a significant enough amount.

Am I the only one finding this all a bit tedious?
No you are not the only one.
They've been punished and are attempting to put it right.
Assuming that they do put it right then it's done.

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by biffer » Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:54 am

Traveller wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:49 am
Assuming you are correct. Saracens are almost certainly relegated.

If another club comes 12th and Saracens escape relegation they will take legal action against Premier Rugby if they do not relegate Saracens / remove their Share.

The logic being that Saracens were proven to be in contravention of the PR rules for the previous three seasons and accepted that they were by not contesting the fine or points deduction. Yet persisted to be in contravention the following season i.e. Did that have an impact on the relegated club. Yes. Because if Saracens had not been in contravention, they would almost certainly have had to offload / reduce their playing squad which would have meant they may not have accumulated as many points. Nor can I see any of the other eleven club watching a club that has played by the rules be relegated whilst one that hasn't (for a fourth year in succession) remaining.
Most likely outcome IMO is they go to a closed shop, let Newcastle in and have a 13 team league with no promotion and relegation for five years or so. I could understand that now, gien that the recent championship winners have been London Irish, Worcester, Newcastle and Bristol in rotation (also London Welsh but they were never sustainable and are done now). So it's the same 13 teams over and over, with one of them getting a year where they thump semi pro teams every week. Devalues the Championship as well. Sarries (or Leicester :smt011 ) being relegated would be the perfect excuse.

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by daktari » Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:01 am

biffer wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:54 am
Traveller wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:49 am
Assuming you are correct. Saracens are almost certainly relegated.

If another club comes 12th and Saracens escape relegation they will take legal action against Premier Rugby if they do not relegate Saracens / remove their Share.

The logic being that Saracens were proven to be in contravention of the PR rules for the previous three seasons and accepted that they were by not contesting the fine or points deduction. Yet persisted to be in contravention the following season i.e. Did that have an impact on the relegated club. Yes. Because if Saracens had not been in contravention, they would almost certainly have had to offload / reduce their playing squad which would have meant they may not have accumulated as many points. Nor can I see any of the other eleven club watching a club that has played by the rules be relegated whilst one that hasn't (for a fourth year in succession) remaining.
Most likely outcome IMO is they go to a closed shop, let Newcastle in and have a 13 team league with no promotion and relegation for five years or so. I could understand that now, gien that the recent championship winners have been London Irish, Worcester, Newcastle and Bristol in rotation (also London Welsh but they were never sustainable and are done now). So it's the same 13 teams over and over, with one of them getting a year where they thump semi pro teams every week. Devalues the Championship as well. Sarries (or Leicester :smt011 ) being relegated would be the perfect excuse.
I can't honestly see this ending in anything but ring fencing. Sarries have played half the year still over the limit, any club that finishes bottom will almost certainly take acton. (Sarries or any of the others).
Its being reported that the initial recommendation was 70 points reduction....
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by loretta » Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:03 am

daktari wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:01 am
Its being reported that the initial recommendation was 70 points reduction....
Where?
I find your lack of faith......disturbing.

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by biffer » Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:11 am


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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by daktari » Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:16 am

loretta wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:03 am
daktari wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:01 am
Its being reported that the initial recommendation was 70 points reduction....
Where?
Its in the Times - so behind the Paywall - essential it was concluded that they should be deducted 35 points for two seasons that they were breaching the cap over 650K - but PRL gave them leniency and allowed it to run concurrently (so halving it in fact)

Edit to state the obvious: The PRL have made a right hash of the whole thing and the league.
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by loretta » Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:33 am

daktari wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:16 am
Edit to state the obvious: The PRL have made a right hash of the whole thing and the league.
Haven't they just
I find your lack of faith......disturbing.

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by mol2 » Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:51 am

The problem with ring fencing will be that there won't be another Worcester or Exeter who eventually establish themselves as Premiership teams.

Apart from the disasterous promotion & immediate of London Welsh qhite a few dsides have come up and survived. Yes they may go down again in the future but sides do surive.

No side should have the right to stay up if their performances don't justify it.
Ring fencing will turn much of the second half of the season into a series of friendlies for some teams once they have dropped out of contention for the play offs and the major European competition which could well skew the top of the table with sides experimenting with their team having one eye on next season whilst coming up against a title contender in an away match.

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by BengalTiger » Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:51 am

I do not understand why people on here want to find any excuse to make out Saracense are victims and are not guilty of deliberatly cheating, where they find themselves now, both players and administrators is down to a culture of entitlement to flout the agreed rules with out consequence.

I still do not see how offloading players helps them, ( unless it is just PR)

From the agreement,

"Player" means, in relation to any Club, any individual (including an Excluded Player) in the relevant Salary Cap Year: (a)who is employed by that Club to play rugby including without limitation any individual employed under the Standard Form Player Contract; (b)with whom that Club has entered into any agreement, understanding or other arrangement (in each case whether written or unwritten) to play rugby; (c)who either plays rugby for that Club or is or who has been available to play rugby for that Club at any point in the relevant Salary Cap Year; (d)who is or has been on a rugby trial with that Club regardless of whether the Club has entered into a formal agreement with that individual; (e)who is a member of the Club’s England Rugby Academy; or (f)any individual as described in sub-paragraphs (a) to (e) above who has been loaned to another Club or club, regardless of whether the player appears in any fixture for the loaning Club in the Salary Cap Year;

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Cardiff Tig » Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:56 am

BengalTiger wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:51 am
I do not understand why people on here want to find any excuse to make out Saracense are victims and are not guilty of deliberatly cheating, where they find themselves now, both players and administrators is down to a culture of entitlement to flout the agreed rules with out consequence.

I still do not see how offloading players helps them, ( unless it is just PR)

From the agreement,

"Player" means, in relation to any Club, any individual (including an Excluded Player) in the relevant Salary Cap Year: (a)who is employed by that Club to play rugby including without limitation any individual employed under the Standard Form Player Contract; (b)with whom that Club has entered into any agreement, understanding or other arrangement (in each case whether written or unwritten) to play rugby; (c)who either plays rugby for that Club or is or who has been available to play rugby for that Club at any point in the relevant Salary Cap Year; (d)who is or has been on a rugby trial with that Club regardless of whether the Club has entered into a formal agreement with that individual; (e)who is a member of the Club’s England Rugby Academy; or (f)any individual as described in sub-paragraphs (a) to (e) above who has been loaned to another Club or club, regardless of whether the player appears in any fixture for the loaning Club in the Salary Cap Year;
Because Liam Williams hasn't been available for any of the season - he's been on international duty and then injured. And once a player signs for another club and leaves midway through the season then they are no longer counted. Obviously the second point will depend on multiples things specific to each scenario.

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by BengalTiger » Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:08 pm

I assume Liam Williams was employed and under contract, if he played or not is not relevant, he was a Saracens player as per the definition.

"Player" means, in relation to any Club, any individual (including an Excluded Player) in the relevant Salary Cap Year: (a)who is employed by that Club to play rugby

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by loretta » Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:24 pm

BengalTiger wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:08 pm
I assume Liam Williams was employed and under contract, if he played or not is not relevant, he was a Saracens player as per the definition.

"Player" means, in relation to any Club, any individual (including an Excluded Player) in the relevant Salary Cap Year: (a)who is employed by that Club to play rugby
Unless there was an injury dispensation. His salary is then excluded from the cap. Anyone know if Sarries brought someone in?
If not, whether he played or not, he's on the books. Getting rid now would take him off the books when he returns to full fitness of course.
I find your lack of faith......disturbing.

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Mark62 » Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:49 pm

Didn’t they bring a South African centre in, though that may have been for Goode

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Mark62 » Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:55 pm

I do agree that ring fencing is now more likely than ever with a 13 team league.
People use Exeter as an example against this, but it’s a decade since their rise, and their geographical position meant once the playing side was sorted, their fan base was assured.
Ealing Trail finders, as an example, would be having to compete against 3 established premiership sides, once Irish move back to London, for fans and to get adequate finance

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by biffer » Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:04 pm

mol2 wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:51 am
The problem with ring fencing will be that there won't be another Worcester or Exeter who eventually establish themselves as Premiership teams.

Apart from the disasterous promotion & immediate of London Welsh qhite a few dsides have come up and survived. Yes they may go down again in the future but sides do surive.

No side should have the right to stay up if their performances don't justify it.
Ring fencing will turn much of the second half of the season into a series of friendlies for some teams once they have dropped out of contention for the play offs and the major European competition which could well skew the top of the table with sides experimenting with their team having one eye on next season whilst coming up against a title contender in an away match.

Apart from the thirteen, anyone else who has achieved promotion in the pro era has ended up in disaster. No one wants it any more, except possibly Cornwall, but that's probably ten years away. I know from friends at London Scottish that they're not interested in promotion, and that it's true of most of the teams they play.

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