Saracens are relegated!

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Mark62
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Mark62 » Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:00 pm

h's dad wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:34 pm
sam16111986 wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:26 pm
TomWeston wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:45 pm
"
A player who is Injured for the entire season
"


Which certainly doesn't mean that the player got no income thus far this season. I trust the players' insurers will be looking in depth into the validity of their injury payments.
There's a difference between not paid and doesn't count towards the salary cap.

Williams will probably count as a marquee player so not playing him might make little difference. Goode being given the season off will make a significant saving though the injury to Mallins will make that awkward.
Most people seem to think Farrell and Itoje are the marquees. I'm not sure about Itoje but I would be very surprised if Williams was one.
Itoje definitely as he’s on some ridiculous amount and it was made public. £750k plus

Wayne Richardson Fan Club
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Wayne Richardson Fan Club » Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:06 pm

IMHO, they are not going to be inside the cap at the end of the season by any legitimate way & as such should be automatically removed from the Premiership & their shares in PRL recovered.
I feel sorry for the genuine long term Sarries fans if any are left.
The club have been financially doping & should be banned accordingly, its the only way to draw a line under this, the line is then quite obviously drawn for any future misbehaviour from other clubs.
You either have a cap in an attempt to level the playing field or we have a free for all, with stacked teams, clubs going bust & a joke league.
All pro teams should come under some form of financial fair play.
To win is not as important as playing with style!

voice of the crumbie
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by voice of the crumbie » Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:27 pm

Wayne Richardson Fan Club wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:06 pm
IMHO, they are not going to be inside the cap at the end of the season by any legitimate way & as such should be automatically removed from the Premiership & their shares in PRL recovered.
I feel sorry for the genuine long term Sarries fans if any are left.
The club have been financially doping & should be banned accordingly, its the only way to draw a line under this, the line is then quite obviously drawn for any future misbehaviour from other clubs.
You either have a cap in an attempt to level the playing field or we have a free for all, with stacked teams, clubs going bust & a joke league.
All pro teams should come under some form of financial fair play.
:smt023 +1 Agree 100% with this.
Tigers for the premiership and European Cup. Get behind the team and make some noise!!

CJ
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by CJ » Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:33 pm

+ one more. Totally agree

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by TomWeston » Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:04 pm

I took a look at the Saffas’ forum to get an idea of what they are saying. Apart from the regular insinuation that we have transgressed in the past because we made no explicit denial, there was this...

You can see some of this on Companies House. Doesn’t seem to be any sign of the players putting in any of their own money. Wiggy9 shows Wray put in £189,000 as equity vs £70 from Wigglesworth, but Wigglesworth owns 70% of the company. Vunprop and MN Property (Itoje) show large loans from someone, thought to be Wray. No real equity contribution. Of course we have no idea what the repayment terms look like. The Itoje loan has been rolled over at least once in full.”

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Traveller » Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:54 pm

TomWeston wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:04 pm
I took a look at the Saffas’ forum to get an idea of what they are saying. Apart from the regular insinuation that we have transgressed in the past because we made no explicit denial, there was this...

You can see some of this on Companies House. Doesn’t seem to be any sign of the players putting in any of their own money. Wiggy9 shows Wray put in £189,000 as equity vs £70 from Wigglesworth, but Wigglesworth owns 70% of the company. Vunprop and MN Property (Itoje) show large loans from someone, thought to be Wray. No real equity contribution. Of course we have no idea what the repayment terms look like. The Itoje loan has been rolled over at least once in full.”
If this is the case then it blows apart the argument ‘it’s not the players who are to blame it’s just Nigel Wray.’ Itoje, Wigglesworth and Farrell are not stupid. They might not be aware of the absolute minutiae of the salary cap. But they would be familiar with the broad principles. If someone came up to me and said I will put £170,000 into a business for you, and you can own 70% of the business and the profit. No questions asked. I would ask questions. Choosing to be ignorant, not asking a question you know you should ask, because you’ve got skin the game is a form of corruption.

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Wayne Richardson Fan Club » Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:11 pm

Traveller wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:54 pm
TomWeston wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:04 pm
I took a look at the Saffas’ forum to get an idea of what they are saying. Apart from the regular insinuation that we have transgressed in the past because we made no explicit denial, there was this...

You can see some of this on Companies House. Doesn’t seem to be any sign of the players putting in any of their own money. Wiggy9 shows Wray put in £189,000 as equity vs £70 from Wigglesworth, but Wigglesworth owns 70% of the company. Vunprop and MN Property (Itoje) show large loans from someone, thought to be Wray. No real equity contribution. Of course we have no idea what the repayment terms look like. The Itoje loan has been rolled over at least once in full.”
If this is the case then it blows apart the argument ‘it’s not the players who are to blame it’s just Nigel Wray.’ Itoje, Wigglesworth and Farrell are not stupid. They might not be aware of the absolute minutiae of the salary cap. But they would be familiar with the broad principles. If someone came up to me and said I will put £170,000 into a business for you, and you can own 70% of the business and the profit. No questions asked. I would ask questions. Choosing to be ignorant, not asking a question you know you should ask, because you’ve got skin the game is a form of corruption.
Any athlete is responsible for what they ingest etc in relation to drugs testing, this whole affair is similar. Do these "firms" actually trade? Wray could probably claim tax relief on these "investments"
Perhaps Sarries wins will become like a lot of Tour de France winners?
To win is not as important as playing with style!

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Tiglon » Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:54 pm

If players salaries were below market rate and topped up by investments, it would take a pretty stupid player not to ask why. Maybe they were persuaded it was all above board, maybe they were happy to break the rules to get success.

FredKite
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by FredKite » Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:14 pm

In Itoje’s case would it matter about the ‘investment’ and apparent loans if he is outside the salary cap as a marquee?

h's dad
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by h's dad » Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:39 am

Mark62 wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:00 pm
h's dad wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:34 pm
sam16111986 wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:26 pm


There's a difference between not paid and doesn't count towards the salary cap.

Williams will probably count as a marquee player so not playing him might make little difference. Goode being given the season off will make a significant saving though the injury to Mallins will make that awkward.
Most people seem to think Farrell and Itoje are the marquees. I'm not sure about Itoje but I would be very surprised if Williams was one.
Itoje definitely as he’s on some ridiculous amount and it was made public. £750k plus
Thank you. Farrell is supposed to be on similar so those two then.
I am neither clever enough to understand nor stupid enough to play this game

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by BengalTiger » Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:33 am

Reading the regulations, Saracens are in trouble for the current season as thier declaration at the start of the season was not correct, no matter who they let go they were in contravention of the regulations,

see below from regs

4.2
Declaration for 2019-20 Salary Cap Year Between 1 June 2019 and by no later than 4.00pm on 30 June 2019, each Club, with the exception of the Relegated Club, will provide to the Salary Cap Manager (with a copy to the Accountants), in respect of the 2019-20 Salary Cap Year, a copy of: (a) a Declaration in the form set out in Schedule 2 signed on behalf of the Club by the Chief Executive Officer and the Financial Director of the Club.
The Declaration certifies the sums which the Chairman, the Chief Executive Officer and the Financial Director, having made full and proper enquiries, expect the Club to pay during that Salary Cap Year by way of Salary in respect of the Club's Senior Players and Academy Players; (b)the total amounts paid or payable provided or to be provided as Salary in that Salary Cap Year by or on behalf of a Club or a Connected Party of the Club in respect of its Senior Players and Academy Players or any Connected Party of those Players in the form of the spreadsheet at Schedule 6; and 2019-20 Regulations – Board Approved (updated 5 February 2019) Page 15 of 57 (c)minutes in the form set out in Schedule 5, of the meeting of the board of directors of the Club at which the Declaration was formally approved on behalf of the Club, including details of the directors in attendance or absent at that meeting.

So letting players go confirms they know they are in contravention!

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by BFG » Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:44 am

It's impossible to be clear on what exactly the situation is without the facts being released but my reading of it so far is that Sarries need to release players from within their cap so that the players with investments that they wish to retain and that have been deemed outside of the cap for which they have been penalised for can then be fitted into the cap.
Last edited by BFG on Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

Traveller
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Traveller » Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:49 am

Assuming you are correct. Saracens are almost certainly relegated.

If another club comes 12th and Saracens escape relegation they will take legal action against Premier Rugby if they do not relegate Saracens / remove their Share.

The logic being that Saracens were proven to be in contravention of the PR rules for the previous three seasons and accepted that they were by not contesting the fine or points deduction. Yet persisted to be in contravention the following season i.e. Did that have an impact on the relegated club. Yes. Because if Saracens had not been in contravention, they would almost certainly have had to offload / reduce their playing squad which would have meant they may not have accumulated as many points. Nor can I see any of the other eleven club watching a club that has played by the rules be relegated whilst one that hasn't (for a fourth year in succession) remaining.

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by BFG » Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:59 am

Traveller wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:49 am
Assuming you are correct. Saracens are almost certainly relegated.

If another club comes 12th and Saracens escape relegation they will take legal action against Premier Rugby if they do not relegate Saracens / remove their Share.

The logic being that Saracens were proven to be in contravention of the PR rules for the previous three seasons and accepted that they were by not contesting the fine or points deduction. Yet persisted to be in contravention the following season i.e. Did that have an impact on the relegated club. Yes. Because if Saracens had not been in contravention, they would almost certainly have had to offload / reduce their playing squad which would have meant they may not have accumulated as many points. Nor can I see any of the other eleven club watching a club that has played by the rules be relegated whilst one that hasn't (for a fourth year in succession) remaining.
At this stage I'm assuming that players released will not have played any matches because they were unavailable most likely due to injury but perhaps other reasoning might come into it.
As far as I can tell punishment has already been given.
To take legal action against might possibly need to include the governing body, of which the clubs themselves are a part of as shareholders.
It'd take legal experts to sort out and would likely be very long, very messy, and very expensive.

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Tiglon » Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:09 am

If they're within the cap for the season as a whole, then I dont see a problem.

Lots of desperate clutching at straws here to find a way to punish Sarries further. If, at the end of this year, it is accepted that their total wage bill is within the cap, then they're ok.

So their declaration was probably false? To be honest, I think that's covered by the current sanctions, for me it's all part of the same offence. The idea that other clubs could sue Sarries to avoid relegation is a bit far fetched, as long as they manage to get themselves within the cap this year.

Letting players go does not confirm that they know they are in contravention, it confirms that they know they will be in contravention if they do not reduce their wages by a significant enough amount.

Am I the only one finding this all a bit tedious?

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